MMOON.ES@PARC-MAXC.ARPA (03/07/84)
Borland's got some surprising company with their product description problem. Read on. Flame #1: I have been trying to get information on what CCP/M is and is not, what it takes to port the same, & what a couple of particular ports are and do. DRI has not, after no fewer than four requests, responded with so much as advertising copy, let alone literature useful to an integrator. I can't buy their manuals anymore, so how am I supposed to evaluate the product's usefulness to me? Other vendors supply reasonable product information (sometimes gratis), what's the lever that works on DRI? Flame #2: Octagon Systems advertises what appears to be the most viable alternative to bank-breaking investments in Compupro equipment since the invention of the dual processor. Wonderful published specs. Can I get a demo from Priority One, who offers Ocatgon stuff? "Nope, no demo system available." Can I buy the manual advertised in their catalog. "Nope, all out." Can I get definitive literature from Octagon (i. e., a written commitment on what their system is/is not, etc., or failing that, at least a complete description of capabilities). "Yes, sir. We'll send it out today." That was three weeks ago & it ain't here yet, after the second request. I have had good dealings with Priority One, and must assume they're in the same fix. I conclude (sic) that either Octagon products are mythical as the unicorn, the best thing since sliced bread & therefore sell faster than made, or so full of bugs they're not really in production, despite the glossy advertising. Anybody on this net know these guys? Last Flame: We have all heard Good Things about Gifford & their software for Compupro stuff. I tried calling the L. A. Gifford number for literature on their software & got lots of soft sell, a long converstion on "my needs", and no literature. What have they really done to/for MP/M-86 (if I could find out what it is in the first place)? What is the party line on what is required to run their port of the same? What are the options? My advice, if you live in L. A., is don't ask unless you have lotsa dollars to find out. If their is a common thread in any of the above, it is that many companies out there on the edge look flaky. Octagon, Giiford, & DRI may all have cases of oversupply-of-demand, but all at once, and for four (count 'em) months? They may indeed have competent products produced by good people, but from the point of view of a little-guy end user, who could tell? Anybody out there got a fomula magic or otherwise for making the determination? I have to live with expensive decisions on these guys for a long time. MMoon.es@parc-maxc.apra
POURNE%mit-mc@sri-unix.UUCP (03/07/84)
From: Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE@mit-mc> DRI Concurrent exists for PC, and is pretty damned good. I think probably wave of the future. About Octogon I know nothing. Gifford MP/M is said to work; Jim Hudson is using it. I am using CP/M 8/16 because it is faster and I have Tony Pietsch's new TMX Bios for it. 8/16 with Compupro hard disk is just plain GREAT, if you're willing to put up with some of CP/M's quirks. Alas, some of these are quirks I am not used to because Tony used to trap them in the BIOS and you can't do that in 8/16. However, Compupro has bouth the source to CP/M and is contemplating doing a few nice things to the Command Processor to make it a little friendlier; but that's a Real Soon Now project, and I have no clues as to when it will be available, or even that they won't shelve it for another project; I expect to have Concurrent running on my big system Real Soon Now. It runs on the IBM PC fine.
strom%brl-bmd@sri-unix.UUCP (03/07/84)
From: Charlie Strom (NYU) <strom@brl-bmd> I can address your problems with Gifford. I suggest that you call the San Leandro main office number. My dealings with them since I purchased a large system in the early summer have been excellent. They are indeed suffering from growing pains, but I have a high regard for them and their technical capabilities and their heart is in the right place. Bear in mind that as hackers, we are not likely to get the inside dope from Giffoed when it comes to explaining the innards of MP/M-816. This company is not dedicated to serving hackers, rather their expertise lies in dealing with less technical people who want to get the job done and are not interested in the inner workings of the operating system. I wish this were different, but I certainly see their point and can respect their position.
les@proper.UUCP (Les Kent) (03/16/84)
I think you will find that it most cases you get what you pay for. So
you have a choice of what you want. If you go the Octagon route you
will obviously get a low price but it will not in anyway be a mature
product. Just like our MP/M 8-16 was two years ago, IT WILL HAVE BUGS.
I have every reson to beleive that they will get fixed but still they
will be there for a while. Also it is a very primitive system without many
enhancments. Chances are they will add features as they go. But won't
they charge more as the software gets better and they get bigger? Now
they might be an exception but I must go from experience with both Gifford
and other micro companies that started small and "grew up". Some examples
are CompuPro, Processor Technology and Cromemco.
If you would like to get a system so that you can figure out how MP/M 8-16
or CCP/M 8-16 works then we are not the answer because we don't give out
source for the XIOS. So obviously we don't cater to the hackers of the world.
But then if we did we would not be around any more. Now we don't do this
cause we don't like hackers (being a hacker myself), but rather it is a matter
of economics and staying in business.
On the other hand we have built into the XIOS everything that you might need to
change in it. Like printer configurations like baud rate, handshaking, databits
stopbits are taken care of in a simple plain text file. The same goes for
consoles. If you want to do serial communications using the XIOS with
the buffering system it has built in then there have been provisions added
to handle that. There are other such things but the idea is that I have
spent a lot of time talking to people who "needed" the XIOS source and
after talking to them and analyzing their problem I would either guide them
to an existing solution or add their solution to the system so that the
person and others can forever take advantage in a supported enhancment
of our operatting system.
And this approch seems to work. We have over 1000 MP/M 8-16 systems out in the
field and none of these people have complained that it is "too easy" to
change configurations or that they miss figuring out how to assemble and
put together and operatting system.
From an end users point of view what more do you want?
If you would like to get more information on MP/M 8-16 and what all we
have done to it and don't mind investing $35. I can see that you are
sent our new, typeset, easy to read and well written document that
describes MP/M 8-16 and all the enhancments we have added to it. All
you have to do is give me your name, address and accept a COD for $35.
It is ~250 pages.
Les Kent
Gifford Computers
ucbvax!{amd70,dual}!proper!les