Brzozowski%his-phoenix-multics.arpa@BRL.ARPA (02/08/84)
Does anyone out there in netland have a copy of the "Turbo Pascal"
by Borland International as advertized in BYTE? For the price, it
seems like a good deal to learn Pascal ($49.95), but if it's not
standard it 'aint much of a lesson (Except how NOT to buy a compiler).
Is Boralnd International a reputable company to deal with?
Forgive me if I seem skeptical, but I am wary about great claims and
small prices...
Any information would be helpful (Diskette formats for CPM-80,
8087 support, etc.).
Thanks in advance!
Gary Brz...SSalzman.ES@PARC-MAXC.ARPA (02/08/84)
Read Microsystems magazine, Feb issue. They have a review of Turbo Pascal. According to them it's quite a nice system. I'd look into it. Isaac Salzman.
POURNE%mit-mc@sri-unix.UUCP (02/08/84)
From: Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE@mit-mc> it gets delivered in reaqsonable time and it's good stuff.
geb@cadre.UUCP (02/10/84)
There was a good article on Turbo Pascal by Alan Miller in Interface Age. He is about the only contributor left at Interface Age worth reading. He was impressed with the product. Be aware that the liscense to distribute is not granted for the $50 (that is $150 more). We program mostly in C, but have tried some Pascal programming with MT+ for 8086 and have been very displeased. I have ordered Turbo and may try to convert some UCSD programs to test it out and will post results to the net if I do.
erh%virginia%csnet-relay@sri-unix.UUCP (02/14/84)
Read Jerry's comments about Turbo in Feb. Byte. By the way, I disagree with his gripes concerning Borland's policy of charging extra $100 for unlimited object code distribution. Why didn't Jerry complain about Sorcim not letting people distribute freely the PRUN.COM file (i.e. the p-code interpreter that comes with Pascal/M)? In a sense, this would equivalent, as linked object code is made in large part of library procedures. Now, quite possibly the the general trend is toward automatic licensing of compiler's output. I only think that Jerry's flames were exagerated. --Ed Howorka.
ignatz@ihuxx.UUCP (Dave Ihnat, Chicago, IL) (02/21/84)
Read Jerry's comments about Turbo in Feb. Byte. By the way, I disagree with his gripes concerning Borland's policy of charging extra $100 for unlimited object code distribution. Why didn't Jerry complain about Sorcim not letting people distribute freely the PRUN.COM file (i.e. the p-code interpreter that comes with Pascal/M)? In a sense, this would equivalent, as linked object code is made in large part of library procedures. Now, quite possibly the the general trend is toward automatic licensing of compiler's output. I only think that Jerry's flames were exagerated. --Ed Howorka. Excuse me, but I *thoroughly* agree with Jerry's complaints about the $100 fee. A compiler or interpreter is a tool. If I can't use it as one without forking over extra money to the providers of the tool, it's totally useless to me. Such a charge means that I AUTOMATICALLY have to add the charge to my product; it's not so bad with a one-time unlimited fee, but is nevertheless annoying enough that I would NEVER use such a tool for production work. (Never mind that I wouldn't produce a marketable product in PASCAL in the first place...) And often such a charge is added on a per-unit distribution basis! I refuse to encourage practices in any way whatsoever, and I encourage others to do likewise. Dave Ihnat ihuxx!ignatz
POURNE%mit-mc@sri-unix.UUCP (02/23/84)
From: Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE@mit-mc> 1. Relax. Borland has dropped the "extra charge" for licensing fees. 2. I doubt you actually read what I said, since you ask questions that were answered in the article itself. 3. SORCIM didn't encourage (allow) distribution of PRUN because they didn't want to support it and all the programs that would be written in it; and indeed, they have ceased to sell PASCAL/M entirely, which is a pity, since it was a good teaching language; but they decline to support it. I gather there are some negotiations between Workman and SORCIM that might lead to Workman becoming a source of Pascal/M; but no details. I never heard of a case where SORCIM tried to STOP anyone from distributing PRUN; but they sure wouldn't explictly allow it.
geb@cadre.UUCP (03/03/84)
I have had a week to work with Turbo Pascal, and as promised,
here is an off-the-top-of-the-head review, not guaranteed to
be completely accurate.
The user interface is quite fine. The editor uses WordStar
commands and is linked to the compiler so that the compiler
finds errors and dumps you into the editor at the semi-appropriate
point. The commands are supposedly user changable, but when I
tried to make it emacs-compatible, it failed to be able to
reconfigure to some of the sequences. I'm not sure why, probably
it is a bug.
The compiler can compile from a disk or from memory, the memory
compile is about an order of magnitude or two faster than Apple
Pascal or MT+ (I am just guessing, I ran no benchmarks). The
compiler also locates run-time errors and throws you back into
the statement that was executing when it bombed. I'm not sure
how it does this, probably there is a linked library error handling
routine. (I haven't read the whole manual, it may say somewhere).
Execution speed is also very fast, probably an order of magnitude
faster than UCSD on Apple II.
The syntax is very close to UCSD. A few differences that I noticed
in converting a longish program from UCSD:
UCSD: reset(fileid,filename);
get(fileid);
recordvar:=fileid^;
close(fileid,lock);
Turbo: assign(fileid,filename);
reset(fileid);
read(fileid,recordvar);
close(fileid);
The write statement similarly replaces the put in UCSD and standard
Pascal. The file handling is much faster than UCSD, especially
for text files where the difference between Apple and Turbo is
about 50 times in favor of Turbo. One curiosity: Turbo does not
seem to be able to read numbers from a text file unless there is
only one number per line, it does not recognize the space as a
proper delimiter.
It seems to have the same built-in string procedures as UCSD
Pascal, and one or two more in addition.
The PAGE routine is not implemented (they have a ClrScn instead,
but it won't page the LST: device). The file type INTERACTIVE
in UCSD does not exist. MARK and RELEASE are implemented apparently
the same as UCSD, but DISPOSE is not (in either version).
Strings do not have a default length, as they do in UCSD, and
string is not a proper type for parameter lists: you must
first declare something like
TYPE WORKSTRING=STRING[80];
and then
PROCEDURE FOO(S:WORKSTRING);
a strange peculiarity (maybe I'm missing something that's in the
manual, but that was how I had to do it to make it work).
The manual is very good. It is a paper-back book-like production.
The price of $49 is super, but doesn't include license to sell
compiled code: that is $100 more. Since this is far below
the cost of Pascals that are (in my opinion) much more
brain-damaged, I don't consider that unreasonable, since most
Pascal users will not be selling their software (I may be wrong,
and still living in 1978 when most programmers were hobbyists).
I think C is still preferable for commerical software development.
One further petty annoyance: it leaves the IBM monochrome display
in high intensity mode when it signs off.
In short, I am very positive about the package. It far exceeds
JRT Pascal in value for price. (Delivery time: 1 week). I like
it better than MT+ or IBM Pascal or UCSD, and it is cheaper.LIN@Mit-Mc.ARPA (03/27/84)
From: Herb Lin <LIN@Mit-Mc.ARPA> I too am having trouble rebinding my editing keys; I want my TURBO editor to be like EMACS, not like WORDSTAR. I am having lots of trouble doing this when I do it in conjunction with defining my terminal characteristics. help? tnx.
byard@Dca-Eur.ARPA (05/07/84)
Date: 7 May 1984 15:38:01 Z
Text: I received my copy of Turbo Pascal today. There has been a change
to the licensing agreement. A note enclosed with the package
states:
"If you want to market programs utilizing object code
generated with Turbo Pascal.[sic] There is no longer a
license charge, provided you return your signed license
agreement."
I got the software at the introductory price. I ordered it via
U.S. Snail from Germany on April 16th. There is no mention in the
actual licensing agreement, that I'm about to sign, of any retric-
tions on selling object code software.
Also, I got version 2.0. It comes with an addendum to the
reference manual dated April 84. So, I guess(?) this version is
new. Anyway, for CP/M 80 users, version 2.0 adds:
o An overlay system.
o Dynamic heap, a full implementation of the dispose procedure.
o Additional editor commands: scroll up, scroll down, to top of
screen, to bottom of screen, to beginning of block, to end of
block, block hide/display.
Additionally, for the IBM PC and clones: colors, graphics, win-
dows, and sound.
Good going Borland (and Jerry). I hope you make a bundle. Anyone
want to buy one reusable JRT disc real cheap?
LarryLee.Sailer@CMU-CS-C.ARPA (01/10/85)
As long as discussion has turned to Pascal, someone tell me this:
How does the *&$#%@ thing work?!?!?!?
Is it true that P Kahn is from the 14th dimension?
thanks
-------Walt Lamia <LAMIA@DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA> (01/10/85)
No, but I *hear* that Turbo was actually written in Sweden, and is sold in Europe as COMPAS Pascal. I think Phillipe Kahn is >just< (:-) a smart, savvy, marketeer who knows a good thing when he sees it. No, I have no rumors about the reputed Turbo C or Turbo Modula, or where they're being done. How 'bout you, out there? %Walt Opinions are my own, but I might deny every saying them if asked. -------
JAlrich.es@XEROX.ARPA (01/10/85)
The is a good biography/interview of Kahn in the latest issue of Micro Conucopia.
Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE@Mit-Mc.ARPA> (01/11/85)
I think you hear wrong...
Date: Wed 9 Jan 85 16:32:57-EST
From: Walt Lamia <LAMIA at DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA>
To: Lee.Sailer at CMU-CS-C.ARPA, info-cpm at AMSAA.ARPA
cc: LAMIA at DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA
Re: TURBO Pascal
UUCP: {allegra,ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!lamia@DEC-Marlboro.ARPA
E-net: MONTY::MARKET::LAMIA
No, but I *hear* that Turbo was actually written in Sweden, and is sold
in Europe as COMPAS Pascal. I think Phillipe Kahn is >just< (:-)
a smart, savvy, marketeer who knows a good thing when he sees it.
No, I have no rumors about the reputed Turbo C or Turbo Modula, or where
they're being done. How 'bout you, out there?
%Walt
Opinions are my own, but I might deny every saying them if asked.jim@randvax.UUCP (Jim Gillogly) (01/12/85)
----------
After discovering how wonderful Turbo Pascal is (IBM PC), I called Borland
and asked about Turbo C. The girl on the order desk said that they had
been told that it's being worked on and they expect it this coming summer.
--
Jim Gillogly
{decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim
jim@rand-unix.arpabwebster@Nosc.ARPA (01/12/85)
> As long as discussion has turned to Pascal, someone tell me this: > How does the *&$#%@ thing work ?!?!?!? > Is it true the P Kahn is from the 14th dimension? When I first saw a TURBO Pascal ad (about a year ago), I figured it had to be some sort of scam or at least gross deception. I phoned and asked for a review copy (I was writing a Pascal column for IBM Softalk at the time), ready to rip it to shreds when it arrived. Instead, I wrote such a glowing (if slightly incredulous) review that Borland quotes me in their ads. I've asked Philippe Kahn about it on a number of occasions, and he just tells me that it's a "simple recursive-descent compiler" and "I'm surprised that nobody else has come out with one." I still think it's magic. ..bruce.. Bruce Webster, Contr. Ed., BYTE bang!crash!bwebster@nosc {ihnp4 | sdcsvax!bang}!crash!bwebster