ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) (02/12/85)
{A 2nd try - hope you didn't already get this}
>Please explain to me why *I* should be penalized for something my *ancestors*
>did? Yes, whites in America did something most people consider wrong, years
>ago. {...several arguments against affirmative action plans...}
>
There are many problems with America's programs to help disadvantaged
people. Intelligent debate is precisely what we need to create fair
and effective solutions to the social and economic problems facing
this country.
But this will never happen as long as our white population refuses
to face a very basic fact, namely:
White people are enjoying an inheritance that was STOLEN by
300 years of slavery and 100 years of legal and social prejudice.
Until white people recognize that they are simply being asked to
share their ill-gotten gains, there will be little room for intelligent
debate about anything.
-michaeljay@cadre.UUCP (02/14/85)
> There are many problems with America's programs to help disadvantaged > people. Intelligent debate is precisely what we need to create fair > and effective solutions to the social and economic problems facing > this country. > > But this will never happen as long as our white population refuses > to face a very basic fact, namely: > > White people are enjoying an inheritance that was STOLEN by > 300 years of slavery and 100 years of legal and social prejudice. > > Until white people recognize that they are simply being asked to > share their ill-gotten gains, there will be little room for intelligent > debate about anything. [MICHAEL ELLIS, <80@spar.UUCP>] In this connexion, I would like to focus attention on the injustice that is being meted out by whites in South Africa, and the inability (or lack of interest?) of any country to stop the cruelty that is going on there. Also, till recently, Australia had a very active apartheid policy, officially named "White Australia" policy. Not to mention the centuries-long dominion European countries like England, France, Portugal, Spain, Holland, etc. have had over countries in Africa and the Indian subcontinent. Why am talking about all this? Because I feel that: (1) Injustice by man against man is not just local to one country. It is going on (and had gone on) *across* countries too. (2) The so-called "developed" countries owe their position in world today - at least to a significant extent - to those poor, underdeveloped countries of Asia, Africa. (3) Hence, it is not just charity that should be the driving force behind the "rich guys'" helping the "poor guys". It is moral responsibility. (You say, "But that's my ancestors who did all that!", and I say to you, "How would you like to be born in a poverty-stricken family in, say, Bangladesh?") I'm sure the reader might, by this time, be feeling that my article is out of context. Lemme explain why I wrote it. I felt it was a good opportunity for me to point out that, as we are trying to remove injustice in our own society, maybe it's time we looked out of this man-made creation called "nation" and did something to root out the global level injustice that's going on. Jay Ramanathan jay@cadre.ARPA X: "Let's go to some far away country" Y: "How about Wyoming?" -- Scene in movie "Dog Day Afternoon"
marsh@enmasse.UUCP (Marshall Glassner) (02/14/85)
In article <80@spar.UUCP> ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) writes: >>Please explain to me why *I* should be penalized for something my *ancestors* >>did? Yes, whites in America did something most people consider wrong, years >>ago. {...several arguments against affirmative action plans...} >> > White people are enjoying an inheritance that was STOLEN by > 300 years of slavery and 100 years of legal and social prejudice. > > Until white people recognize that they are simply being asked to > share their ill-gotten gains, there will be little room for intelligent > debate about anything. > >-michael The gains of my family are far from ill-gotten. My Jewish great-grandparents emigrated from Germany where they were treated like shit, and my grandfather's life as an plumber and electrician could hardly be compared with Simon Legree's. I reject your attempt to include me in some all-encompassing White Man category. The Cabots and Lodges and the slaveholders of pre-20th century America and the bigots of Selma have **nothing** in common with me. I don't discriminate, and I expect the same from others. Marshall Glassner
geb@cadre.UUCP (02/14/85)
> > White people are enjoying an inheritance that was STOLEN by > 300 years of slavery and 100 years of legal and social prejudice. > > Until white people recognize that they are simply being asked to > share their ill-gotten gains, there will be little room for intelligent > debate about anything. > This is a racist argument on its face: all people with a certain skin color have inherited guilt for what some people with the same color skin did hundreds of years ago. Many of our ancestors came long after slavery was abolished with only their shirts on their backs and built what they have by their own work. Many came to regions (like the West) with no slavery, owned no slaves. The standard of living of Canada, which had no slaves, is about the same as the U.S.; if the slaves added so much, this wouldn't be so. One could easily argue that slavery held the economy back so that if there were no slaves the country would be far wealthier. All of the facts seem to point to slavery and the subsequent black poverty as a drain on national resources. If you want to flagellate yourself, be my guest, but I recognize no obligation to discriminate in favor of blacks. If any group has a claim to reparations from the general populace of the U.S., the Indians' claim is far more substantial, since almost everyone owns land here. It is too late to rectify the injustice of slavery, since those wronged are dead.
jay@cadre.UUCP (02/15/85)
>> White people are enjoying an inheritance that was STOLEN by >> 300 years of slavery and 100 years of legal and social prejudice. >> >> Until white people recognize that they are simply being asked to >> share their ill-gotten gains, there will be little room for intelligent >> debate about anything. > >This is a racist argument on its face:............ >.....One could easily argue that slavery held the economy back >so that if there were no slaves the country would be far wealthier. >All of the facts seem to point to slavery and the subsequent >black poverty as a drain on national resources. Interesting line of thinking. The "master" gets every last measure out of his "slave", and then decides the "slave" should be paid ridiculously low wages. The "slave" thru generations is driven to poverty, and then is blamed for being a "burden on the (master's?) national resources"! There are still places where they starve donkeys (beasts of burden) until one day they (the donkeys) collapse; then they (the donkeys) become a burden on the master and are promptly disposed of. Convenient, what? Jay Ramanathan "We are all equal" "Well, some are *more* equal!" --- Farm, Animal. (By Orwell, George) (Adapted *without* his permission)
dmcanzi@watdcsu.UUCP (David Canzi) (02/17/85)
In article <80@spar.UUCP> ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) writes: > > White people are enjoying an inheritance that was STOLEN by > 300 years of slavery and 100 years of legal and social prejudice. > > Until white people recognize that they are simply being asked to > share their ill-gotten gains, there will be little room for intelligent > debate about anything. The majority of whites have acquired what they own by working for it. If their employer payed them with stolen wealth, who is guilty of living off of the proceeds of theft? The employee or the employer? Suppose, for the sake of argument, that the employee is to be considered guilty of sharing in stolen goods. In that case, the requests from blacks for special advantages in employment, is a request for a share of what has been stolen from other blacks. I can see that this is a highly moral position. David Canzi, greedy white boy
elf@utcsri.UUCP (Eugene Fiume) (02/18/85)
Will the people interested in discussing this irresolvable argument please discuss it outside of net.music? Thanks Eugene Fiume.
mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) (02/18/85)
In article <311@cadre.ARPA> geb@cadre.ARPA (Gordon E. Banks) writes: > > > > White people are enjoying an inheritance that was STOLEN by > > 300 years of slavery and 100 years of legal and social prejudice. > > > > Until white people recognize that they are simply being asked to > > share their ill-gotten gains, there will be little room for intelligent > > debate about anything. > > > This is a racist argument on its face: all people with a certain > skin color have inherited guilt for what some people with the same > color skin did hundreds of years ago. Gordon, if you read carefully, you will see that you are misinterpreting the citation. He did not say whites inherit guilt, he said whites inherit material benefits. Nor does he say that every white individual has inherited these benefits. You're putting the words of a fallacy of argument into his mouth. However, it is extremely likely that each of us has so benefited. I've benefitted: I went to a good school district. Compare the average quality of public school educations available to blacks with that available to whites. That is an example of persisting social injustice. There is a large Catch-22 category of social injustice that I say becomes the fault of each succeeding generation that refuses to work to abolish it. Much like the slaveholder that says "why should I take the loss incurred by freeing my slaves when it was my father who bought them?" It's easy to blame other and previous generations to try to hide your own selfish interests. -- Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh
boyajian@akov68.DEC (02/20/85)
While I believe that the problem of racial inequality is an important subject
for discussion, and while I acknowledge that the current round of argument is
due to the seeming segregation of categories for the American Music Awards,
it is my opinion that the discussion has now passed all direct relevance to
the subject of music, so would you people *please* take the argument elsewhere?
Thank you.
--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)
UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPAknight@nmtvax.UUCP (02/22/85)
>> White people are enjoying an inheritance that was STOLEN by >> 300 years of slavery and 100 years of legal and social prejudice.... >The majority of whites have acquired what they own by working for it. If... What, if ANYTHING, does this have to do with MUSIC, in the current context? Please move this discussion to a more appropriate newsgroup, and keep flame out of a (normally) decent newsgroup. Flames to /dev/null. Bob