cpmlist@AMSAA.ARPA (info-cpm-request) (08/06/86)
Fellow CP/Mers - On the 19th of July I went on a one week vacation. While I
was gone, a revolutionary thing happened on this list: messages with sizes in
the thirty to forty thousand byte range containing software encoded for
transmission via mail channels started showing up. Now, I am beginning to
receive queries from info-cpm readers wanting to know what's going on.
To understand this reaction, one must recall some fairly recent history:
For at least the last several years (the time during which I have been
maintaining this list), we have from time to time received requests from the
USENET community to not post messages containing tens of thousands of
characters because much of the USENET relies on dialup telephone connections
for transmission, and these telephone calls cost money. Similar requests have
been heard from the DDN side because info-cpm is a mail-list, and some readers
have accounts that are subject to disk storage quotas. I can personally
attest that this is a problem for some people, because I must from time
to time temporarily delete people from the list because they have gone on
vacation (or whatever) and their mail has built up to the point that their
disk quotas have been exceeded, causing all subsequent mail to be rejected
(which causes automated "nastygrams" to be returned to me as list maintainer,
and to originators of messages to info-cpm).
But during this same time, a very important evolution has occurred:
"mail-only" connections have been established between the DDN and several
other networks. And thus, a significant number of people using these networks
have begun receiving info-cpm (and net.micro.cpm via the automatic message
forwarding service provided by the Army Ballistic Research Laboratory). Many
of these people are from overseas (England, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden
and Holland come to mind). And at a time when we are hearing that "CP/M is
dead", the enthusiasm of these people seems to suggest that some sort of
"rebirth" of CP/M may be occurring overseas. Now imagine (if you're not one
of them) how frustrating it must be for these new readers to constantly read
messages describing the wealth of free software available from SIMTEL20 to
those of us using hosts connected to the DDN. (Readers in the CSNET and
USENET, into which info-cpm has been relayed for some time, don't have to
imagine how this feels; THEY KNOW.) As far as these "outsiders" are
concerned, SIMTEL20 might as well be on the planet Pluto.
To deal with this situation as best I can, I have created separate
"welcome" messages to be sent to new info-cpm subscribers. The one for the
DDN people contains the "archive blurb" (a sort of SIMTEL20 archives
handbook), while the one for non-DDN readers explains that the archives are
not available to them, and includes the nice writeup by Jeff Edelheit
describing alternate sources for much of this software. Also, when I update
the blurb, I limit the distribution of the new version to DDN subscribers
so as not to burden the non-DDN people with something that can only be a
source of frustration. I wish I could do more, but I don't know how.
So given this situation, along come some folks who have worked up CP/M
versions of programs used in the UNIX world to transmit groups of files (the
functional equivalent of a CP/M archive) and encoded binary files via ordinary
mail channels. AND all this stuff can be processed on UNIX machines before
downloading to a micro. Suddenly, there is a ray of hope for the hordes of
"disenfranchised" readers, and from the limited reactions I have seen so far
THEY LOVE IT!
Now the idea of sending software via mail and news-feed channels is not
new: This has been going on in newsgroups like the USENET's net.sources for
quite a while. But USENET sites can arrange to not receive selected
newsgroups if the disk storage or transmission costs are more than they wish
to bear. I would not like to see info-cpm dumped into the "bit bucket" for
such a reason. Frankly, I am surprised that I have not seen "screams of
anguish" from the USENET community in response to the recent high-volume
activity in info-cpm/net.micro.cpm. Maybe everybody has fat wallets and huge
disks these days...
So what to do? It has been suggested that a separate USENET newsgroup,
something like "net.cpm.sources", could be established. This would be a nice
solution for USENET, I think, because it would allow each site the option I
mentioned above. But it would not do much for people in other networks. What
other possibilities are there? And is anyone willing to VOLUNTEER to provide
some sort of archive service in the other networks (I believe BITNET has
something going now, but I don't really know anything about it)? And most
important, how do you feel about direct software distribution via info-cpm.
I realize that asking these questions is likely to start a free-for-all,
but I think this is a really important issue. It is, for example, conceivable
that the info-cpm <-> net.micro.cpm message forwarding service might have to
be discontinued if things get really out of control, but I in my opinion this
would be EXTREMELY UNDESIRABLE. I am not implying that such a move is at
all imminent; it is NOT. But we are faced with an important policy decision
concerning how we want our newsgroup to operate. This issue is muddied
somewhat by the "government interest". The US Army provides considerable
resources to maintain the SIMTEL20 archives, and info-cpm is one of the
channels through which the contents of those archives are made known to
government users. So I think the Government has some rights regarding how
this list is operated, although I'm not sure what they are. I hope Frank
Wancho will comment on this.
So please send your comments and opinions regarding this matter to the
list as a whole, and not just to me as list maintainer. I think this needs to
be an open discussion. And please "make sure your brain is running before
putting your mouth (or fingers, in this case) in gear". There are diverse
interests at stake here, and this is not a trivial question. Let's do the
best we can.
Looking forward to a good discussion,
Dave Towson <info-cpm-request@amsaa.arpa>
info-cpm list maintainerMAP@mit-ai.ARPA (Michael A. Patton) (08/10/86)
It seems to me that there is a simple solution (if everyone goes along). That is to split the source distribution on Usenet off from the main list (call it net.micro.cpm.source or net.source.cpm or whatever they want to use), then to gateway that list in the same way that the main list is now, but as a seperate list. All of the non-DDN subscribers will probably want to be on the list as well as some on the DDN side. It would also be useful if someone in the DDN world would extract useful things and submit them to the archive, but I suspect the more useful entries will end up there eventually anyway. A more elaborate form of this might be to allow some automated procedure to extract items from the "sources" list and keep them somewhere for a while. Then people submitting source could send a note to the main list and DDN types could get a copy of useful stuff without being required to receive and store it all. This is similar to the way many UNIX (tm) sites handle net.sources now. Mike Patton
msmiley@NOSC.ARPA (08/11/86)
Being very new and inexperinced in this field, I would like some more information on accessing the files at SIMTEL20. Is it true an ASCII file (such as a .LBR file) can be sent to you in mail? I do not have on-line access to SIMTEL20.
amen@quequeg.UUCP (Bob Amen) (08/12/86)
[munch] As a Usenet site with no connections to the ARPA net I have been drooling over some of the teasers we've gotten in the form of SIMTEL20 lists. I requested info from the net regarding existence of a CP/M BBS in the Maryland area and got no responses. So I vote for posting to the net. However...as a site that pays our own phone bills from contracts and grants I would like to see it be a moderated group (say mod.source.cpm) with some reasonable form of archiving. That might prevent the usual 'I didn't get whizbang...could someone repost it?' Perhaps a list of what's available could be kept and mail to the list maintainer would bounce the list back. Then requests for something archived could be mailed to the moderator. I bet if we thought about it for a bit we could come up with a decent method of automatically mailing out the requested software. So there's my two cents worth. Not having connections to the other nets I can't respond to the other concerns that were raised. My only concern is that we not raise the ire of the net any more than it already is due to increased volume (see what's been happening in net.adm etc). I'm glad to see that CP/M lives! Bob Amen UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!aplcen!quequeg!amen USPS: Chesapeake Bay Institute 4800 Atwell Rd Shady Side, MD 20764-0037 Voice: (301)867-7550 (301)269-5373 (Balt.)
W8SDZ@SIMTEL20.ARPA (Keith Petersen) (08/16/86)
If you are unable to access SIMTEL20 because of network restrictions
please remember that MOST of the new files announced to Info-Cpm are
also available on my RCP/M Royal Oak (MI) which may be accessed at
300 bps (Bell 103a), 1200 bps (Bell 212a), or 2400 bps (V.22 bis).
The telephone number is (313) 759-6569. They are also available from
the CP/M RoundTable on General Electric Information Services' GEnie.
--Keith Petersen
Arpa: W8SDZ@SIMTEL20.ARPA
GEnie Mail: W8SDZ
uucp: {ihnp4,allegra,cmcl2,dual,decvax,mcnc,mcvax,vax135}!seismo!w8sdzcrayinc@mhuxi.UUCP (Rick) (08/19/86)
> > [munch] > > As a Usenet site with no connections to the ARPA net I have > been drooling over some of the teasers we've gotten in the form of > SIMTEL20 lists. I requested info from the net regarding existence > of a CP/M BBS in the Maryland area and got no responses. So I vote > ......... > I'm glad to see that CP/M lives! > > Bob Amen The complete SIG/M library is available FREE from the owners of the PUBLIC DOMAIN library for CP/M machines on their BBS. The PC-Blue (PC-DOS) software library is also available FREE from the same BBS. The BBS is in New Jersey, their number is (201) 753-9758. Amatuer Computer Group of NJ (ACGNJ) a >