ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) (10/23/85)
> >> Diane > > Ellen > Bob > >> As I understand it, Rachel is the daughter of Jean > >> and Scott after Jean manages to control her powers. But > >> at that time isn't Jean actually Phoenix? So is Rachel > >> the daughter of Scott and a reformed Phoenix? If that's > >> so, then Rachel can *never* be born in *this* timeline, right? > >It's even worse than that.... If Jean/Phoenix is really just a > >simulacrum of Jean/Marvel Girl, *is* Rachel the daughter of > >Jean/Grey at all? or is she the daughter of Scott and the > >Phoenix? If she is, is she human (OK, mutant)?? Not to mention, > >since Madelyne *isn't* Jean Grey, why is Rachel > >upset that her first child should be a boy? > If you go by the original Claremont timeline vs. the atrocity we > now have foisted on us, there was never a dichotomy between > Jean and Phoenix. She had her powers stripped from her after > the battle on the Moon in #137, married Scott, and they had Rachel. > So Rachel IS the child of Scott and Jean, not the spawn of some > pan-dimensional being playing at human. Waitaminnit. The way I misunderstand it, when Jean gets merged with the Phoenix, in Rachel's timeline, she stays merged. Thus, even though she stripped of the "phoenix" power, the simulacrum remains as Jean Grey, allowing Rachel to be the child of Scott and the Phoenix simulacrum. And Jean-prime stays at the bottom of LI Sound and the Phoenix is the mother of Rachel -- right? Boy. I have a headache now... -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Who's been repeating all that hard stuff to you?" "I read it in a book," said Alice. - - - - - - - - - - - - - tektronix!reed!ellen
bobh@pedsgd.UUCP (Bob Halloran) (10/24/85)
In article <2037@reed.UUCP> ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) writes: >> > Ellen >> Bob > >> >(Comments on whether Rachel is the daughter of Jean Grey or the >> > Phoenix simulacrum) > >> (Proposition that Claremont never intended a difference between >> Jean and Phoenix, and that Rachel is Jean's child) > >Waitaminnit. The way I misunderstand it, when Jean gets merged >with the Phoenix, in Rachel's timeline, she stays merged. Thus, >even though she stripped of the "phoenix" power, the simulacrum >remains as Jean Grey, allowing Rachel to be >the child of Scott and the Phoenix simulacrum. >And Jean-prime stays at the bottom of LI Sound and the Phoenix is >the mother of Rachel -- right? > >Boy. I have a headache now... As I (mis)understand it, in Claremont's original timeline, Jean never 'merged' with anything; the radiation exposure, etc. boosted HER existing powers to a 'cosmic' level, making HER the Phoenix. If you recall, this was the period where almost any female character Claremont got his hands on had her powers amplified (Sue Storm had her force-field powers boosted, Janet Van Dyne got her 'bio- energy' stingers, etc.). So there is no cocoon at the bottom of the Sound in that timeline; there's a de-powered Jean Grey who USED to have lotsa power, but had it stripped after losing the fight on the Moon. BUT, to borrow Ororo's line after getting her powers zinged, "my children may "... Bob Halloran Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG ============================================================================= UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax, most Action Central}!vax135\ {topaz, pesnta, princeton}!petsd!pedsgd!bobh USPS: 106 Apple St M/S 305, Tinton Falls NJ 07724 DDD: (201) 758-7000 Disclaimer: They don't know, and they probably don't care. Quote: "History is made at night. Character is what you are in the dark."
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (10/24/85)
> Waitaminnit. The way I misunderstand it, when Jean gets merged > with the Phoenix, in Rachel's timeline, she stays merged. Thus, > even though she stripped of the "phoenix" power, the simulacrum > remains as Jean Grey, allowing Rachel to be > the child of Scott and the Phoenix simulacrum. > And Jean-prime stays at the bottom of LI Sound and the Phoenix is > the mother of Rachel -- right? Maybe. Maybe not. You are assuming that the revisionist version of what happened in that shuttle on the way down is correct for Rachel's timeline as well as ours. Not Necessarily So. In Rachel's timeline, things may have gone the way it was originally told before Shooter stuck his oar in, i.e. none of this simulacrum nonsense. This would put the point of divergence between the two universes slightly earlier than has been stated in the past, but this is a minor revision compared to what has just happened. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry
tallman@dspo.UUCP (10/27/85)
>You are assuming that the revisionist version of >what happened in that shuttle on the way down is correct for Rachel's >timeline as well as ours. Not Necessarily So. > ... i.e. none of this simulacrum nonsense. > Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology That would be good, but I can't believe it. You are saying in one world Phoenix appeared as the simulacrum of a cosmic being. In the other, Jean gained exactly the same powers through radiation. Both later became Dark Phoenix and behaved exactly the same way (as shown in Rachel's flashbacks in X-Men #199). This is asking for a lot of coincidences. The simplest explanation is that the events creating Phoenix were the same in both worlds. C. David Tallman - dspo!tallman@LANL.GOV or ihnp4!lanl!dspo!tallman Los Alamos National Laboratory - E-10/Data Systems Los Alamos, New Mexico - (505) 667-8495 -- C. David Tallman - dspo!tallman@LANL.GOV or ihnp4!lanl!dspo!tallman Los Alamos National Laboratory - E-10/Data Systems Los Alamos, New Mexico - (505) 667-8495
ph@wucec2.UUCP (Paul Hahn) (10/28/85)
No, Ellen. I think Bob's reply is correct; in Claremont's timeline, Phoenix is Jean and Jean is Phoenix. There is no Jean-1 stuck in the bay. --pH /* * "I am that I am. I was your daughter." */
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (11/02/85)
> ... You are saying in one world > Phoenix appeared as the simulacrum of a cosmic being. In the other, Jean > gained exactly the same powers through radiation. Both later became Dark > Phoenix and behaved exactly the same way (as shown in Rachel's flashbacks > in X-Men #199). This is asking for a lot of coincidences. The simplest > explanation is that the events creating Phoenix were the same in both worlds. Similarity of behavior is to be expected, given that the cosmic being absorbed Jean's personality to a very large extent. Getting a sufficiently exact match of powers is harder to explain, especially since any significant difference in powers could be expected to have changed events noticeably. But turn it around: a cosmic being, masquerading as Jean Grey, did a sufficiently good imitation to fool her closest friends, Scott Summers, even Charles Xavier? Even when in telepathic linkage with them, and on one or two occasions (inside the M'krann Crystal) semi-fusion with them? That too is an awful lot to swallow. There is the issue I raised a while ago: how do we *know* that the FF286 girl is the real Jean, and the Phoenix wasn't? Remember the "resurrection" of Guardian. We have NO unbiased witness to the crucial events. It seems to me that this is actually the *simplest* explanation: the account in FF286 is just plain wrong. Either the girl from the capsule is lying, for reasons yet to be determined, or she really believes it but is mistaken. (By her own account, the events in question happened at a time when she was (a) under severe stress and (b) rapidly dying from radiation poisoning.) The Phoenix of our world and the Phoenix of Rachel's world behaved the same way because their origins were identical. Both were taken for Jean Grey by knowledgeable observers because both *were* Jean Grey. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry
ph@wucec2.UUCP (Paul Hahn) (11/02/85)
In article <284@dspo.UUCP> tallman@dspo.UUCP (Charles David tallman) writes: > You are saying in one world >Phoenix appeared as the simulacrum of a cosmic being. In the other, Jean >gained exactly the same powers through radiation. Both later became Dark >Phoenix and behaved exactly the same way (as shown in Rachel's flashbacks >in X-Men #199). This is asking for a lot of coincidences. The simplest >explanation is that the events creating Phoenix were the same in both worlds. First, a small quibble--Rachel's "flashbacks" in #199 are from BOTH universes. Although I believe that Claremont's alternate timeline is just what would have happened without Shooter's interference, that issue is not the reason why. Now, to the main issue--of course it's a ridiculous number of coincidences. Don't blame Claremont for that; blame the X-FACTOR people. Put it this way--do you really think that Claremont buys any of that stuff about Phoenix duplicating Jean? The simplest explanation in my opinion, which I am fairly sure is what Chris is going to do and which I KNOW I am going to do, is to simply ignore the X-FACTOR stuff as much as possible. That means Claremont's version of the origin of Phoenix still holds in Rachel's universe. --pH /* * "She is her mother's daughter, and she has the Phoenix * power." */
cc-30@ucbcory.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) (11/03/85)
(argh! I haven't gotten the hang of this replying, yet! I don't know who wrote this reply, but it raised a question.) >In Rachel's timeline, >things may have gone the way it was originally told before Shooter stuck >his oar in, i.e. none of this simulacrum nonsense. This would put the >point of divergence between the two universes slightly earlier than has >been stated in the past, > Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology > {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry Just when was the point of divergence supposed to be? I'd always assumed it was much, much earlier than the Phoenix-saga-era. Because, Colossus has a different middle name. This isn't a nonsensical reason. Russian middle names are patryonimics (?) , or forms of the father's name. Instead of Nikolievitch, Piotr's middle name is Alexandrievitch (I think) in the Future past stories. So, if Peter's dad's name was different, or he had a different father, the dichotomy must have an earlier origin than even the creation of Jean as Phoenix. Any comments? (I'd also like to make a small note that the patryonimic-thing proved Claremont will admit mistakes, though not out loud. Illyana;s middle name changed from Natalyanova to Nikolievna.) --Kathy Li
bob@plus5.UUCP (Bob Simpson) (11/04/85)
I really hate to muddy the issue a little, but there is one obvious
solution to this whole problem...
Who says this *is* the real Jean Grey? How do we know that the real
Jean didn't slurp up a whole bunch of energy/character points/powers
from the Phoenix Phorce and this is the burned out "shell" recuperating
from that horrid experience? Talk about sheep in wolves clothing!
Uhlmann's Razor: When stupidity is a sufficient explanation,
there is no need to have recourse to any other.
--
Dr. Bob
ORG Plus Five Computer Services
UUCP ..!{ihnp4,cbosgd,seismo}!plus5!bob
Plus Five has disclaimed any knowledge of me and whatever I might say.henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (11/05/85)
> Just when was the point of divergence supposed to be? > I'd always assumed it was much, much earlier than the Phoenix-saga-era. Some while ago in the letter column somebody asked about this, thinking that the point of divergence was the attempted assassination of Senator Kelly and wondering how that could be reconciled with (at the time) hints of earlier divergence. The reply said quite specifically that the point of divergence was the death of Jean Grey. Recent events suggest a more specific point of divergence: Jean/Dark-Phoenix's encounter with Jean's family, and their reactions. > Because, Colossus has a different middle name. Hm. I'd missed that, or forgotten it. Perhaps that should be "point of major divergence". The real point of divergence would have to be much earlier, and very subtle, to have such slight effects over wide geographic separations without perturbing the major events beyond recognition. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry
cc-30@ucbcory.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) (11/06/85)
Just in case Eshpanade hasn't answered all the Robotech-questions:
Robotech was started a few years ago by a man named Carl Macek.
Macek, a comics and Japanese animation fan/dealer, decided that the way
Japanese animation was being brought to the United States was a disgrace.
(Kimba the White Lion, Battle of the Planets are excellant examples. They
are a far cry from the originals.)
Macek wanted to bring the animation to people, the way it was originally
shown, only in English, which would help a lot in dramatic pacing. He decided
he wanted to do Macross, a very popular series and movie. I think he was
thinking about doing a translation of the movie, and selling it on video tape,
but the original project was to sell the translated series in a set of
video tapes--NOT for syndicated television. You can still find copies of this
original project hanging around. (Rick Hunter is Rick Yamato).
Then, the big stink arose. Harmony Gold , while it had the rights to the
animation from Tatsunoko, did not have the toy rights to Macross. Another
American company, Revell by name, had beat them to it. Apparently, Revell
just went in and got the rights to whatever looked like it would sell, without
trying to figure out what series the stuff came from. All these Japanese
toys were coming out under the generic name of "Robotech".
Great. Harmony Gold can either try and market toys for Macross that look
nothing like the animated planes/robots/etc. --OR-- they partnered up with
Revell.
But video tape sales is not hot. Syndicated t.v. is. So, HG went
back over the list of series they had rights to, and looked over Revell's
list, and tried to come up with two other series that fit in both animation
style, and story. They came up with Southern Cross and Mospeada. The
reason they couldn't just put Macross out on its own is that US syndicatee
t.v. will not put a show on, unless it has a certain number of episodes.
Macross didn't meet that number, so they had to add episodes. (The same
goes for the splicing of Captain Harlock and Queen Millennia).
Harmony Gold tried to meld the three scripts together (rather unsuccessfully
according to the Japanimation and CFO purists.)using the writing crutch of
"protoculture". You'll notice it's never the same thing twice. But they got it
out on t.v., where people could see and love it.(Like ME!!!)
The three series, Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada are rather easy to
tell apart, simply by what name the bad guys are called. If they are the
Zentraedi (correct spelling), you're watching Macross, the adventures of
Rick Hunter (Hikaru Ishida) and the Super-Dimensional-Fortress 1 (SDF-1).
If the bad guys are the Robotech Masters, you're watching Southern Cross,
(for all you Minmei-haters, there's another twit, here.) the adventures
of Dana Stirling and the Fifteenth Armored Tactical Squadron. (Listen for
Minmei songs in the background. I think even Bowie sings a couple!). If
the bad guys are the Invid, and we have that regular army clown, Scott
Bernard as a hero (Actually, he was Stick Bernard, and the bad guys were the
Inbit, but who's counting all the time HG "Americanized" the names for the
little kiddies) you're watching Mospeada.
As I mentioned in an earlier article, there ARE editing differences
between the original Japanese and the American versions. If you thought the
Harmony Gold version was good--you should see the Macross Movie! (I haven't.
I only have the anime. It's so frustrating.)
The order of the Macross episodes was rearranged some, and of course,
there were name changes. (Misa Hayase=> Lisa Hayes.) Nude Minmei scenes
get cut (only one!--the shower, remember?) peoples faces getting blasted off
get cut. (Ever see a person machine-gunned in Japanese animation? --Fun!)
But the storyline still remained.
Southern Cross did not fair quite so well. The story had its first
episode entirely removed, so you miss the earthlings getting kidnapped and
brainwashed, then returned, with Zor among them, so they just kind of assume
he's human. Not to mention the fact that the whole thing was supposed to take
place on an earth *colony*, which had two moons. Not only did they remove
plot, they removed a moon! Also, the writing on the last episode was changed
so that they could bring the Invid in, so Zor ends up as an idiot condemning
the world instead of a hero saving it. (Yes, when he crashed the Robotech
Masters' ship, he DID destroy the flowers.) But, hey! Without this writing, we'd
never have seen the animation.
Mospeada comes over pretty much intact, except for the main purpose of
the Invid. Originally, the Inbit were a gypsy-type of race, and when they
come cruising over the Earth, paranoid little buggers that we are, we
try and nuke them. Mistake. They decide we're way too primitive, and attempt
to control the earth before we destroy it. They decide the best way to do
that is to control the energy source that drives anything and everything
(including weapons)...a hydrogen based fuel (yup! Macek turned it into
protoculture!). Kinda sheds a different light on everything, don't it?
I know all this stuff (probably incorrectly) from the Comics Interview
article and the Amazing Heroes article, plus a friend in the CFO who loved
Southern Cross, and hated Robotech.
I would like to state, that though I know all the purists cant (obviously)
I love Robotech! I love and appreciate all the work and time that Harmony
Gold put in. Making a whole new soundtrack from scratch, and commissioning
a musical score is not easy. Nor is it easy for a writer to create a script
true to the original, yet able to lip-synch. (Ever notice how it doesn't
seem dubbed?--each line was written to specifically match the opening and
closing of the mouths that was animated. I think it took about a month per
episode.) Not to mention the fact that Japanese animation actors often
ad-lib off the script (the only source Harmony Gold has).
And Macek obviously loves the original Japanese, and isn't arbitrarily
making decisions from nowhere. The writing changes don't matter to an
American audience, because most of that audience hasn't seen the original.
(Me, case in point). He also changes the names for another reason other than
audience-identification--it's the lip-synch thing again. Try saying Misa
and then saying Lisa. Notice how there's one less labial? (lips together).
It made a lot of difference to the script writers.
Of course, I feel kind of sad that the scarf scene couldn't be used.
Remember when Minmei gives Rick the scarf, and then when he's walking Lisa
home, she looks at the scarf and "smells Minmei's perfume"? Good writing.
Originally, Lisa had seen the initials L.M. (heart) H.I. . But since
they changed Hikaru's name to Rick, they couldn't use it. It's a real
shame. But them's the breaks.
Macek has since mentioned that he's planned a Robotech movie to take
up a space in the continuity of Macross. Remember when the SDF-1 makes it back
(sorry to spoil so much story), and the earth government won't let any of the
Macross citizens debark? Well, the movie is going to cover what happened on
earth during that time. It will NOT be a translation of the Macross movie
(BOOOOO!!!). Macek's hoping to get some big names for the voices. None the
same as from Macross.
He has also mentioned commissioning animation from Tatsunoko to fill
in the continuity gaps/gaffs in the series as it stands now. He wants to get
one episode for every day of the year.
This is as accurate as I can recall everything. Please send mail
if you find something wrong. I hope this has answered some quest....
Wait! forgot the comic!
If you're on the East Coast, it might be difficult to find the first
copy of the Macross Saga. It was done before the three-series spliced
decision was made, and came out under the title of "Macross". (nice coloring)
by the next issue, it was four-color, and under the title of "Robotech".
Currently, Comico (Macek refused to relinquish creative control to a major
company, and approached only independants with the idea.) is putting out
three Robotech titles: The Macross Saga, Robotech Defenders, and the Third
Generation . They correspond to Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada.
Each issue is one episode.
So, now, I'm done. Please, corrections are always welcome.
--Kathy Liron@wjvax.UUCP (Ron Christian) (11/06/85)
> Who says this *is* the real Jean Grey? How do we know that the real > Jean didn't slurp up a whole bunch of energy/character points/powers > from the Phoenix Phorce and this is the burned out "shell" recuperating > from that horrid experience? Talk about sheep in wolves clothing! > > Uhlmann's Razor: When stupidity is a sufficient explanation, > there is no need to have recourse to any other. > Dr. Bob There's more! Ummm, just recently I bought 'those' issues of the Avengers and FF, partly due to someone or other praising the writing (if not the subject) of those particular issues. (Or maybe it was only the FF.) Anyway, I'd stayed away from them partly because I thought the whole idea sucked, and partly because I don't buy comics that have cute little messages in the top right corners. (Only exception was the Dr. Strange -- secret bores II crossover.) So I've skimmed through the issues, and, well, something occurred to me... Just what was in... the crate... the Enclave was trying to smuggle out of Jamaca? Could this be,,, (wonder of wonders) Clarmont's Way Out? Comments? Ron -- -- Ron Christian (Watkins-Johnson Co. San Jose, Calif.) {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix,vecpyr,certes,isi}!wjvax!ron Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: "If you are seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it."
ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) (11/07/85)
> Just in case Eshpanade hasn't answered all the Robotech-questions: > (sixty lines of stuff) Please edit your subject line. I'm really more interested in the Jean Grey Shuffle than in Robotech masquerading as the Jean Grey Shuffle and leaving the Real JGS at the bottom of Long Island Sound .... :-) -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Who's been repeating all that hard stuff to you?" "I read it in a book," said Alice. - - - - - - - - - - - - - tektronix!reed!ellen