andie@cvl.UUCP (Diane Donaldson) (10/15/85)
Regarding Jean and Rachel, I'm confused on at least one point. As I understand it, Rachel is the daughter of Jean and Scott after Jean manages to control her powers. But at that time isn't Jean actually Phoenix? So is Rachel the daughter of Scott and a reformed Phoenix? If that's so, then Rachel can *never* be born in *this* timeline, right? My brain hurts... Diane "Are you so eager to die that you would lay down your life to prevent me from finding the Trinity Building?"
ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) (10/18/85)
> As I understand it, Rachel is the daughter of Jean > and Scott after Jean manages to control her powers. But > at that time isn't Jean actually Phoenix? So is Rachel > the daughter of Scott and a reformed Phoenix? If that's > so, then Rachel can *never* be born in *this* timeline, right? It's even worse than that.... If Jean/Phoenix is really just a simulacrum of Jean/Marvel Girl, *is* Rachel the daughter of Jean/Grey at all? or is she the daughter of Scott and the Phoenix? If she is, is she human (OK, mutant)?? Not to mention, since Madelyne *isn't* Jean Grey, why is Rachel upset that her first child should be a boy? It wouldn't be possible for Rachel to be born of the union of Maddy and Scott anyhow, since the genes aren't the same. And when Chris Claremont says Rachel is "her mother's daughter, she has the Phoenix power," (from Kathy Smith's article), does he really mean that Phoenix, not Jean, was Rachel's mother? Is Rachel going to discover that Jean Grey isn't her mom, but Phoenix is? Are we being set up for the biggest hysterical fit of all time (when Ray meets Jean, Jean meets Maddy, and hell breaks loose?) The mind boggles. Ellen -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Who's been repeating all that hard stuff to you?" "I read it in a book," said Alice. - - - - - - - - - - - - - tektronix!reed!ellen
bobh@pedsgd.UUCP (Bob Halloran) (10/22/85)
In article <2021@reed.UUCP> ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) writes: >> As I understand it, Rachel is the daughter of Jean >> and Scott after Jean manages to control her powers. But >> at that time isn't Jean actually Phoenix? So is Rachel >> the daughter of Scott and a reformed Phoenix? If that's >> so, then Rachel can *never* be born in *this* timeline, right? > >It's even worse than that.... If Jean/Phoenix is really just a >simulacrum of Jean/Marvel Girl, *is* Rachel the daughter of >Jean/Grey at all? or is she the daughter of Scott and the >Phoenix? If she is, is she human (OK, mutant)?? Not to mention, >since Madelyne *isn't* Jean Grey, why is Rachel >upset that her first child should be a boy? If you go by the original Claremont timeline vs. the atrocity we now have foisted on us, there was never a dichotomy between Jean and Phoenix. She had her powers stripped from her after the battle on the Moon in #137, married Scott, and they had Rachel. So Rachel IS the child of Scott and Jean, not the spawn of some pan-dimensional being playing at human. Bob Halloran Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG ============================================================================= UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax, most Action Central}!vax135\ {topaz, pesnta, princeton}!petsd!pedsgd!bobh USPS: 106 Apple St M/S 305, Tinton Falls NJ 07724 DDD: (201) 758-7000 Disclaimer: They don't know, and they probably don't care. Quote: "A bored hacker is a dangerous thing!!" -- O. W. Jones, "Bloom County"
kayuucee@cvl.UUCP (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) (10/25/85)
> If you go by the original Claremont timeline vs. the atrocity we > now have foisted on us, there was never a dichotomy between > Jean and Phoenix. She had her powers stripped from her after > the battle on the Moon in #137, married Scott, and they had Rachel. > So Rachel IS the child of Scott and Jean, not the spawn of some > pan-dimensional being playing at human. > > Bob Halloran > Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG But the whole point is that the person on the moon WAS Phoenix, NOT Jean Grey. So in Rachael's timeline the newly de-powered Phoenix marries Scott and has Rachael. Appearantly, the Jean Grey of Racheal's timeline was never recovered that she knows of. It would be interesting to see if the Sentinals were able to detect her in Jamacia Bay and went and killed her. I think this whole matter stinks. Madelyn Pryor is getting the short end of the stick and even though she is the Phoenix she is still a great character. Star-Lord
bobh@pedsgd.UUCP (Bob Halloran) (10/29/85)
In article <900@cvl.UUCP> kayuucee@cvl.UUCP (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) writes: >> If you go by the original Claremont timeline vs. the atrocity we >> now have foisted on us, there was never a dichotomy between >> Jean and Phoenix. She had her powers stripped from her after >> the battle on the Moon in #137, married Scott, and they had Rachel. >> So Rachel IS the child of Scott and Jean, not the spawn of some >> pan-dimensional being playing at human. >> >> Bob Halloran >> Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG > > But the whole point is that the person on the moon WAS Phoenix, >NOT Jean Grey. So in Rachael's timeline the newly de-powered Phoenix >marries Scott and has Rachael. Appearantly, the Jean Grey of Racheal's >timeline was never recovered that she knows of. It would be interesting >to see if the Sentinals were able to detect her in Jamacia Bay and went >and killed her. > I think this whole matter stinks. Madelyn Pryor is getting the short >end of the stick and even though she is the Phoenix she is still a great >character. > > Star-Lord Doesn't wash, I feel. If the Phoenix is a being of pure energy by nature, how could they strip her of 'herself'? To borrow a line from Scotty in Blish's 'Spock Must Die' novel, "I'd sooner stick a thirteen-amp tap directly into God". :-) I think my original proposition is still right; in Rachel's timeline Jean Grey had her powers amplified to cosmic levels; after the Shi'ar battle they stripped her of this, she and Scott were married and had Rachel. The dichotomy arose when Jim Sh**ter decided it was a good idea to bring her back and needed to rationalize it; 'Oh, that wasn't really Jean all that time, it was a deus-ex-machina we brought in so we could bring the real Jean back later and invalidate the whole Phoenix storyline.' Jeff, JEFF!!!, when is Sh*ter coming to trial in SPC? PLEEEASSSE!!! Bob Halloran Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG ============================================================================= UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax, most Action Central}!vax135\ {topaz, pesnta, princeton}!petsd!pedsgd!bobh USPS: 106 Apple St M/S 305, Tinton Falls NJ 07724 DDD: (201) 758-7000 Disclaimer: My opinions are my own. Quote:"BOO! We changed Coke again! BLEAH! BLEAH!" - The Boogums, 'Bloom County'
jsdy@hadron.UUCP (Joseph S. D. Yao) (10/30/85)
In article <900@cvl.UUCP> kayuucee@cvl.UUCP (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) writes: > I think this whole matter stinks. Madelyn Pryor is getting the short >end of the stick and even though she is the Phoenix she is still a great >character. What makes you think that Maddie is the Phoenix? Nothing I have seen suggests that, except some silly hypnotic tricks. -- Joe Yao hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP}
kayuucee@cvl.UUCP (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) (10/30/85)
> In article <900@cvl.UUCP> kayuucee@cvl.UUCP (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) writes: > > I think this whole matter stinks. Madelyn Pryor is getting the short > >end of the stick and even though she is the Phoenix she is still a great > >character. > > What makes you think that Maddie is the Phoenix? Nothing I have > seen suggests that, except some silly hypnotic tricks. > -- > > Joe Yao hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP} But, are they silly? Just because Mastermind was using Madelyn in his bid for revenge, doesn't mean that she still couldn't be Phoenix. I don't trust the fact that her last memory was waking up from a plane crash and being the sole survivor. A plane crash which happened to take place the exact instant whatever we thought was Jean Grey killed herself on the moon. As a side question does anyone know the month and year publication dates for Avengers Annual #10, X-Men 137 and whatever issue Madelyn Pryor first appeared? I could find out from my collection, but it would take 2 days to get to my Avengers. I want to find out once and for all whether or not 5 year old "Maddy" could be Scott's blushing bride. Thanks, Star-Lord
ron@wjvax.UUCP (Ron Christian) (11/01/85)
>> I think this whole matter stinks. Madelyn Pryor is getting the short >>end of the stick and even though she is the Phoenix she is still a great >>character. >What makes you think that Maddie is the Phoenix? Nothing I have >seen suggests that, except some silly hypnotic tricks. > Joe Yao hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP} *** Ah, the lost possibilities of this whole mess... Shows to go ya what happens when you have too many cooks on a storyline.... I remember Scott and Maddy getting to know each other in front of a fire. (Lovely scene, that, especially the part where scott wrestles with his own memories of phoenix while watching maddy standing with the fire behind her... (sigh) Whatever happened to that kind of scripting?) She told Scott the story of how she was a pilot and the plane crashed.... all hands deceased except for her... massive guilt... and scott finds out it was the same day Jean died... There were some other hints as well, but memory fails me. Now of course, we have this massive screw-up to sort out. I was repackaging my old comics last weekend (rats, but that's another story) and I noticed an interesting thing: Going over some of what I thought were better issues of the Xmen, Shitter was already editor-in-chief. Seems to me either the writers had more control then, or it took awhile for Shitter to corrupt marvel. I agree with whomever said that Jean was Phoenix in the original storyline. (Both timelines, jean powerless and jean dead) As I said, there were hints after jean's death that Maddy had some ...connection... with jean. I was satisfied with things as they stood as I was upset with jean's death and could be consoled with the possibility that she and scott had at last really gotten together (but scott doesn't know it...). Now, instead of one woman that was marvel girl and became phoenix, then may (I say may) have (after her death) inhabited and regenerated an 'unused' body (pilot who bears some physical resemblance, killed in a plane crash) and marries her longtime lover, we have three different people (well, two people and a beyonder clone.) and a host of logical errors. Pfaugh. We're talking 'sales' here... Drek does well, I guess. More rug-rats out there than there are discriminating readers. The crying shame of it all is when X-factor comes out, I'll buy it. And Shitter will look at his sales charts and crow about how he did the right thing. Damn him. Anyone saving the Jean Grey shuffle discussion? We should package it and send it to Marvel. Ron -- -- Ron Christian (Watkins-Johnson Co. San Jose, Calif.) {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix,vecpyr,certes,isi}!wjvax!ron Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: "If you are seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it."
kayuucee@cvl.UUCP (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) (11/02/85)
> Doesn't wash, I feel. If the Phoenix is a being of pure energy by nature, > how could they strip her of 'herself'? To borrow a line from Scotty in > Blish's 'Spock Must Die' novel, "I'd sooner stick a thirteen-amp tap > directly into God". :-) > > I think my original proposition is still right; in Rachel's timeline > Jean Grey had her powers amplified to cosmic levels; after the Shi'ar > battle they stripped her of this, she and Scott were married and had > Rachel. The dichotomy arose when Jim Sh**ter decided it was a good > idea to bring her back and needed to rationalize it; 'Oh, that wasn't > really Jean all that time, it was a deus-ex-machina we brought in so > we could bring the real Jean back later and invalidate the whole Phoenix > storyline.' > > Bob Halloran > Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG As stated in another article in net.comics, I think it highly unlikely that Jean Grey of one universe would become Phoenix through the Phoenix Force and Jean Grey from another would become Phoenix through cosmic radiation, both then become Dark Phoenix, and then both are hunted by the Shi'ar (which in Rachel's world would have no reason to hunt her as fanat- ically as there was no Phoenix). This calls on a little bit too much coincidence. Star-Lord
sds5044@ritcv.UUCP (Steven D. Smith) (11/02/85)
It seems everyone is in an uproar cncerning the current Jean Grey situation. There doesn't seem to be any problem as far as I'm concerned, except that I think Jean Grey should have remained dead regaurdless if it was really her as Phoenix or not. Anyway, this is how I make sense of thev: continuity Marvel is currently presenting. In our line, Jean Grey was placed in stasis by the energy creature while her body healed itself. The energy creature being a creature of pure evil was then in continual conflict with its new personality. Finally it to the point where Jean's side of its personna destroyed it before it could do more damage. In Rachel's time, the energy creature absorbed and healed Jean's body rather than duplicating it. When the battle on the moon came, it left Jean's body rather than being destroyed. Jean's body was probably protected from destruction by this sudden outpour of energy. So, a now powerless Jean Grey went back to Earth with Scott and poof - along comes Rachel.
ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) (11/04/85)
> > Anyone saving the Jean Grey shuffle discussion? We should package it and send > it to Marvel. > > Ron I'm saving it and have already sent some stuff to Marvel, both to Claremont/Nocenti and to Shooter. No responses, but I don't really expect that. However, as they're mailed I remove the files, so don't ask for copies. Also: Due to a bit of trouble over the first letter I sent, I am removing all names from the postings. Ellen -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Who's been repeating all that hard stuff to you?" "I read it in a book," said Alice. - - - - - - - - - - - - - tektronix!reed!ellen
ph@wucec2.UUCP (Paul Hahn) (11/05/85)
In article <584@wjvax.UUCP> ron@wjvax.UUCP (Ron Christian) writes: >The crying shame of it all is when X-factor comes out, I'll buy it. And >Shitter will look at his sales charts and crow about how he did the right >thing. Damn him. Well, then, DON'T BUY IT! I didn't. As I said in the letter I posted last week, buying or not buying is one of the few ways we have of making our feelings known. Don't say to yourself, "Well, one person won't make any difference." It DOES make a difference, albeit a small one. If enough of us do it, it adds up to a big difference. --pH /* * "Heather? No! Don't come in here! Get--" */
dls@mtgzz.UUCP (d.l.skran) (11/06/85)
I have just read X-factor #1, and, well, it could be worse. A lot of attention was put into the comic, and I found myself liking Jean Grey in spite of myself. It's actually a pretty good working out of what might happen if she was resurrected/re-created. Personally, I think Chris deserves some blame for this mess. The Phoenix was never clearly laid out. In some comics, it was vaguely stated that Jean had achieved her ultimate potential as a PSI, in others that a COSMIC being has done - what ? -- to/with her. I vastly dislike the COSMIC being idea. It relieves Jean of too much of the blame. I like the idea of a normal human suddenly getting power without limit and then slowly going down the tubes as they find that they cannot restrain their inner thoughts and desires, egged on by Mastermind, of course. The current confused storyline puts the focus back on the cosmic being idea. Who is the Phoenix? Jean? Maddy? Rachael? What is happening? What is that bolt of energy flashing from the moon to the Earth? The Phoenix? Are we supposed to believe she/it/he hung out on the moon for all those years? Ugg! Dale
dwc@hou2b.UUCP (D.CHEN) (11/07/85)
> In our line, Jean Grey was placed in stasis by the energy creature >while her body healed itself. The energy creature being a creature of pure >evil was then in continual conflict with its new personality. Finally it >to the point where Jean's side of its personna destroyed it before it could >do more damage. a small point but i don't think that the energy creature was pure evil. it was a creature of good intentions but was corrupted by the human nature that it had taken on. in one of those dumb crossovers between asgard and the x-men (or power pack or something like that) hela recognizes rachel as "her mother's daughter". it is stated that "her mother" was one of hela's most bitter enemies but that "her mother" had sent more souls to hela than hela's allies. this seems to support the idea of good intent. it also seems to indicate that rachel's timeline and "our own" are the same (since there is evidence that hela does not transcend timelines). danny chen ihnp4!hou2b!dwc
ph@wucec2.UUCP (Paul Hahn) (11/07/85)
In article <1383@mtgzz.UUCP> dls@mtgzz.UUCP (d.l.skran) writes: >Personally, I think Chris deserves some blame for this >mess. The Phoenix was never clearly laid out. In some >comics, it was vaguely stated that Jean had achieved her >ultimate potential as a PSI, in others that a COSMIC being >has done - what ? -- to/with her. I vastly dislike the COSMIC >being idea. It relieves Jean of too much of the blame. Admittedly, I haven't been reading for very long, but all the issues I've seen in which Chris describes the use of the Phoenix power are explicit: Jean (or Rachel) uses some (presumably psionic) ability to tap into "power primal as creation and so vast it beggars description". The most I ever recall Chris claiming was that she had become someone/thing else as a result of having gained all this power (and who wouldn't? That was part of the point of Chris' creating the character)--not that she had been "taken over", or whatever, by some being. --pH /* * "LEAVE ME ALONE, YOU DOO-DOO HEAD!" */
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (11/17/85)
> (nasty but triumphant leer in voice: "I DIDN'T EVEN BUY X-MEN > #200!! NYAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!So it's a *collector's > item*!! SO WHAT?!!! I'm *free*, you fools!! FREE!!! HA-HA-HA-HAA......") "Anything free is usually worth what it costs." :-) More seriously, who cares whether it's a collector's item? It's a good story. Not great -- the X-Men/Alpha Flight crossover was better -- but worth reading. You're missing good stuff. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry