ijk@hropus.UUCP (Ihor J. Kinal) (01/23/86)
>> is Tracey Baker's article. >> It does seem strange that something in the body could (supposedly) >> generate that much heat, but I have heard of other examples of >> spontaneous combustion that sound just as strange. The most promenant >> in my mind is something that was drilled into my head on horse farms: >> When new bales of hay arrived at the barn, a thermometer was inserted >> into the middle of each bale. Apparently, if the hay was not cured >> properly, the temperature in the middle of the bale could get >> high enough to set the hay on fire. This sounds pretty strange too, >> but it does happen. Give me a break!!! The reason 'hay' can burn is that grass continues to 'live' after it's cut; this process, in accordance with the 2nd law of Thermodynamics, gives off waste heat. The waste heat gets trapped in the bales, and the temperature rises!!! Voila - fire. Normally, spontaneous combustion refers to things like oily rags, which oxidize very slowly, but if the heat cannot escape easily... Ihor Kinal P.S. Supposedly, pouring water on burning hay only makes the problem worse, since it just speeds up the grass's natural processes. But I've never confirmed that. P.P.S. While I've never seen hay burn, I typically add grass clippings to my compost heap to help it keep going. Last fall, after not mowing my lawn for several weeks, I had a fairly large pile. After two days, I turned the pile over, and found a few red embers glowing. PPPS - Anyway, spontaneous combustion is one thing; the burning of hay is something else, as I've tried to make clear; neither occurrence can be related in any way that I can see to people unless you stack piles and piles of them ...
gadfly@ihuxn.UUCP (Gadfly) (01/24/86)
-- > Give me a break!!! The reason 'hay' can burn is that grass continues > to 'live' after it's cut; this process, in accordance with the > 2nd law of Thermodynamics, gives off waste heat. The waste heat gets > trapped in the bales, and the temperature rises!!! Voila - fire. > Normally, spontaneous combustion refers to things like oily rags, > which oxidize very slowly, but if the heat cannot escape easily... > > Ihor Kinal > P.S. Supposedly, pouring water on burning hay only makes the problem > worse, since it just speeds up the grass's natural processes... It's not any "living" processes of the grass, which is dead, but of bacteria (anaerobic variety, I believe). The hay is essentially fermenting, and thereby heating up. The water content in the cut hay is a critical factor in the rate of fermentation. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 24 Jan 86 [5 Pluviose An CXCIV] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7753 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***
ems@amdahl.UUCP (ems) (01/27/86)
In article <224@hropus.UUCP>, ijk@hropus.UUCP (Ihor J. Kinal) writes: > >> is Tracey Baker's article. > >> It does seem strange that something in the body could (supposedly) > >> generate that much heat, but I have heard of other examples of > >> spontaneous combustion that sound just as strange. (...) > >> Apparently, if the hay was not cured > >> properly, the temperature in the middle of the bale could get > >> high enough to set the hay on fire. (...) > > Give me a break!!! The reason 'hay' can burn is that grass continues > to 'live' after it's cut; (...) Cut hay is dead. It lays in the field long enough to assure that. What happens is that insufficiently dried hay can suffer bacterial decay and oxidation leading to heat build up and fire. > Normally, spontaneous combustion refers to things like oily rags, > which oxidize very slowly, but if the heat cannot escape easily... And hay. And unturned compost. > > Ihor Kinal > P.S. Supposedly, pouring water on burning hay only makes the problem > worse, since it just speeds up the grass's natural processes. > But I've never confirmed that. Pouring water on burning hay puts it out. At least for small lumps. I have confirmed that. For a whole barn full, I have no idea. You might get all kinds of strange things (Like water gas? From coal at high temp and pressure C + H2O -> CO + H2). I grew up in farm country. Green hay is a real threat to the survival of the barn. And the stuff is real dead. I've pulled apart a few bales of 'warm' green hay in my life. Decaying, yes. Live? No. BTW, one really big problem they had at rice dryers was with rice dust. Every decade or so we would loose a dryer to fire/explosion. For a real fun time put a sack of flour on a tuna can of explosives in a 12ft square shack. Light fuse and get a LONG way away! -- E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything.
devine@asgb.UUCP (Robert J. Devine) (01/28/86)
> Give me a break!!! The reason 'hay' can burn is that grass continues > to 'live' after it's cut; this process, in accordance with the > 2nd law of Thermodynamics, gives off waste heat. The waste heat gets > trapped in the bales, and the temperature rises!!! Voila - fire. > > Ihor Kinal > P.S. Supposedly, pouring water on burning hay only makes the problem > worse, since it just speeds up the grass's natural processes. > But I've never confirmed that. Wrong. Fresh bales of hay cause fires because of the action of mold or mildew on the still wet grass. Cut open a bale that was baled wet and you will find slimy, warm hay (Yum!). A bale by itself will reach 160 degrees Fahrenheit within several hours. A hay-mow can easily get past 200. Anaerobic bacteria love warm, wet, and dark conditions. And no, water on a hay (or grass) fire will put it out just fine. jus' a farm boy from Wisconsin working on them new-fangled computers.... Bob Devine
ant3@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Butch Anton) (01/29/86)
Along the same lines, grain (read wheat, barley, etc.) is prone to spontaneous combustion also. Grain elevators will not take grain which is above a certain percentage of moisture content. That's why grain dryers are used... (By the way, I'm from Montana) -- Butch Anton University of Chicago uucp: ..!ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!ant3 mailnet: x9.xba@UChicago.Mailnet bitnet: ant3%sphinx@UChicago.Bitnet ARPA: x9.xba%UChicago.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.ARPA USnail: 2560 E. 72nd Place (312) 731-6314 home Chicago, IL 60649 (312) 731-6750 work
jcp@osiris.UUCP (Jody Patilla) (01/31/86)
> Along the same lines, grain (read wheat, barley, etc.) is prone > to spontaneous combustion also. Grain elevators will not take > grain which is above a certain percentage of moisture content. > That's why grain dryers are used... > (By the way, I'm from Montana) Actually, the explosiveness of grains has as much to do with the combustibility of finely-divided particles. Under the proper conditions, cornstarch can be ten times more combustible than TNT. In this scenerio, moisture content doesn't matter. Thus grain elevators and feed mills are very, very dust-conscious as the risk of explosion is high. Moisture content is often used to determine the price per bushel for grain because it increases the spoilage factor. (I'm from Delaware myself and my dad has worked at a grain elevator for 30 years). -- jcpatilla "Not faint canaries but ambrosia.." (name the original source)
fine@nmtvax.UUCP (Andrew J Fine) (02/07/86)
Having read the previous articles on grain dust, do you suppose we can process it under the right conditions to serve as cheap, high-power solid rocket propellant ( Our SRB's: Grown in the USA! ).
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (02/12/86)
> > Having read the previous articles on grain dust, do you suppose we can > process it under the right conditions to serve as cheap, high-power > solid rocket propellant ( Our SRB's: Grown in the USA! ). In the 1920s, coffee was so overly available in Brazil that ground coffee was used instead of coal for locomotives.