nick@oliveb.UUCP (Nick Yannaccone) (09/17/84)
Recently I have been reading how some of the environmental groups like the
Sierra Club are becoming worried about the effects of mountain bikes on
the environment. They are concerned about the erosion such bikes cause
on hiking trails. Does anyone know more about this issue? I do not own a
mountain bike but am interested in how people on the net feel about it.
Nick
{hplabs|fortune|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix}!oliveb!nickkfl@hoxna.UUCP (Kenton Lee) (09/19/84)
xxx I am an avid bicyclist, but I am against bicycling on mountain trails. These trails are meant for hikers and are maintained for them (and by them in many cases). The trails are not designed for bicycles and slopes will quickly erode because of the ruts left by bicycle tires. On another issue, bicycles are a lot noisier and dangerous than hikers. How would you like to be hiking on a narrow trail (as most are) when a bunch of bikers come by. I think that mountain bikes are fine IF they only are used on trails designed FOR them. -- Kenton Lee, Bell Labs - WB wb3g!kfl or hoxna!kfl
dbb@fluke.UUCP (Dave Bartley) (09/20/84)
At a local (Puget Sound Group) Sierra Club Wilderness Committee meeting
earlier this week, I happened to bring up the question since mountain
bikes look like fun and a good means of handling long, flat approach trails
with none of the obnoxious noise and smoke their motorized cousins emit.
The answer I got was the bikes should be barred from Wilderness Areas.
The answer isn't quite as definite in other National Forest-adminstrated
land. The bikes are new enough that I think the issue hasn't been
completely thought out.
--
Dave Bartley UUCP: {decvax,ihnp4}!uw-beaver!
John Fluke Mfg Co. allegra! fluke!dbb
Everett, WA USA {ucbvax,hplabs}!lbl-csam!ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (09/22/84)
This is just a small scale instance of the problem caused by off-road motorized vehicles. I've seen areas both in Colorado and in Maryland ruined by dirt bikers. Areas of the savannah in Africa are concerned by the practice of the modern day tour-group safaris leaving the established roads and going cross-country to look at some particularly interesting animal. -Ron
fred@varian.UUCP (Fred Klink) (09/24/84)
Last weekend we we're hiking one of our favorite day-hike trails at Point Reyes National Seashore (north of S.F.), going up a very steep, narrow and wooded section of trail. The only sounds were the birds, the leaves rustling in the breeze and the sound of our footfalls. Suddenly, above us we heard an incredible mechanical rattle and someone shouting "Excuse me!". We stepped into the bushes (probably poison oak!), and a mountain bike and rider hurtled past down the hill. We stepped back onto the trail just in time to leap back for another one. My time on wilderness trails is quality time for me to get away from the world. I found this incident just as disturbing and maddening as I would a dirt motorbike or a snowmobile in the same circumstances. I agree with the Sierra Club-- mountain bikes do not belong on hiking trails. At Point Reyes and elsewhere in this state there are numerous wide, well graded dirt roads that I'm willing to share with cyclists and equestrians. But narrow, steep trails should be the province of hikers only. I'm a cyclist who does thousands of road miles a year. I happen to think cycling is the finest sport going. But I also feel that it has its place and the backcountry ain't it! Fred Klink
trow@uw-june (Jay Trow) (09/27/84)
Forwarded from Bikers^@Xerox.arpa ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Sep 84 13:59:49 PDT (Monday) Subject: Re: Mountain Bikes & The Environment I think that mountain bikes should be allowed to go anywhere that horses are allowed to go. Since horses are allowed in most backcountry areas (I am not sure about designated Wilderness areas though), bikes should be allowed there too. A bike does no more damage to the environment than a horse, and causes no more disturbance to other people than a horse or even a hiker (unlike the ear-ripping noise and choking fumes of a motorbike). Sure, there will be a few irresponsible people who will ride like maniacs -- just as there are irresponsible hikers who leave trash all over and let their fires burn. But I don't think it's fair to close trails to bikers, because of the inconsiderate few, just as hikers are not shut out, because of their inconsiderate few. There really are not very many places that mtn. bikes are allowed to go, especially if all hiking trails are closed to them. There are no "trails designed for them", as Kenton Lee recommends. Very few people who buy mtn. bikes actually ride them in the mountains. Most buy them for local playing, and hardly ever see "wilderness" or "backcountry". This is one of the reasons that I don't believe that the land is any more threatened by mtn. bikes than it is by hikers or horses, because they are few and far between. As far as erosion from ruts, bikes don't leave ruts unless it's muddy, in which case very few bikes are out in the wilderness, and if there are, the ruts are no worse than the huge pockmarks left by horses, or the ruts caused by sliding hikers. I just don't think bikes should be discriminated against. Holly Wanless wanless@xerox.arpa ----------------------------------------------------------------
mats@dual.UUCP (Mats Wichmann) (09/27/84)
Don't know if anybody else noted this, but the Pt Reyes Nat'l Seashore people just outlawed bicycles of all types on about 60% of their trails - seems that the mountain bike were the main cause for concern here with the erosion they were supposedly helping to cause.
jdl@vaxwaller.UUCP (Joe Ludwig) (09/27/84)
I own a mountain bike and have taken it on a few narrow mountain trails. Ghast!! Now that I have bared my soul and opened myself to criticism and letter bombs, let's look at this discussion a little closer. As for excessive erosion, I feel that proper studies are in order. As for sharing back woods hiking trails, common courtesy is in order. When riding on bike trails, steets, or when bike lanes are directed onto the sidewalk, I do not run down pedestrians. Why is it assumed that this normally sane rider will turn into a raving kamikaze once I get on a narrow dirt trail. Sure there are people who use these bike in a dangerous and disconsiderate manner, but let's not condemn all for the sake of the few. I think that ATBs(All Terain Bikes) can be an enjoyable addition to the sport of bicycling. We just need to develop a new(or an addition to the existing) set of safety and courtesy quidelines which keep everybody happy. Joe Ludwig Varian Associates Walnut Creek, CA
nick@oliveb.UUCP (Nick Yannaccone) (09/27/84)
Actually when I originally phrased the question, I was referring to
nonmotorized mountain bikes. These are the ones people have been
discussing in this group. The discussions have been about using them
to get to work instead of a regular bike because of pot holes, weather etc.
I was curious if these people had used these bikes on trails and what others
felt about that. The Sierra Club article dealt with these types of bikes;
they were under study as to their ecological effects. The Sierra Club already
takes a dim view of motorized bikes on trails. I can see now I should have
been clearer in what I meant by mountain bike.
Nick Y
{hplabs|fortune|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix}!oliveb!nickrcd@opus.UUCP (Dick Dunn) (09/28/84)
The question--what about damage to trails, etc. from mountain bikes?
There are several issues tied up in this. On one issue, I feel pretty
strongly--mountain bikes should stay the hell off tundra! But, for that
matter, so should people for the most part. Tundra is very easily damaged
and takes decades to recover (if it ever does) once the vegetation has been
damaged. (For the lowlanders, I'm using "tundra" in reference to the low
vegetation which covers the ground above timberline. It consists mostly of
short grasses and wildflowers.)
A second issue relates to mountain bikes making "new trails". In general,
hikers tend to follow trails with reasonable slopes. Mountain bikes can
climb pretty steep slopes with their stump-pulling low gears, and it may be
that the fun of climbing a very steep grade could win out over the "common
sense" of ascending at a more reasonable grade. Result? New trail blazed
at too steep an angle (and perhaps poorly chosen as well) becomes an
erosion problem. Of course, a herd of stupid hikers can do the same thing;
it's only the novelty of mountain bikes that I think creates the potential
for a problem.
As far as the question of problems with taking mountain bikes over existing
trails, it seems doubtful but I'm only conjecturing on this one.
--
Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086
...Never offend with style when you can offend with substance.kenf@tekigm.UUCP (Ken Ferschweiler) (09/30/84)
[Waiter, there's a bug in my system...] I object to the use of mountain bikes on hiking trails. While some claim (probably correctly) that a bicycle, carefully handled, has less impact on a trail than does a hiker, the bicyclist has the *potential* for doing much more damage. I have seen mountain bike tracks on trails which would not have shown a bootprint. (I have heard this same claim from trail motorcyclists, yet have never seen a motorcycles-allowed trail which had not been churned into dust and/or muck. You can't assume that people are going to be gentle). I am also concerned about trails being shared by travellers moving at greatly dissimilar speeds; I have had to move off of a trail for mountain bike on a downhill run. To be fair, that particular cyclist slowed down and was quite polite, seemed to be careful of what he was doing; still, it was bothersome to have to move. Will the cyclists, having been forced off the roads by faster-moving cars, now force the slower hikers off the trails? Lest I be accused of looking at only one side of the issue, (that of the hiker), let me say that I have a mountain bike, which I use for commuting, general transportation, and fun on dirt roads. They *are* fun, and I would love to ride on trails, if I thought it fair to the existing denizens of those trails, but I don't, so I won't. (Just kick the horses and motorcyclists out of the woods and give the mountain bikes the trails *they* used to use... Whoever thought up this "multiple use" idea anyway?) Ken Ferschweiler ...tektronix!tekigm!kenf
isiw@druri.UUCP (WattIS) (10/03/84)
I happen to own a mountain bike, and after years of riding touring and racing bikes, I've finally found something that provides me with peace, enjoyment, excercise, quiet, spills&thrills, and probably best of all, durability. Also being an avid camper, I can certify that a mountain bike does at least as much "damage" as a human, and certainly less than a horse. I'm tired of the attitude of the biking establishment toward moun- tain bikes, and the attitude of the outdoors establishment. Mountain bikers get treated like something just above a dirtbiker sans muffler, and just below a skateboarder. I think it's got something to do with how much sheer fun it is. Every serious road biker (even the shave- legs) that's taken a spin on my stumpjumper has come back a convert, no matter what was said before the ride. Every established sport that has been subject to a technological or mental advance has responded with the same kind of criticism. Just as one example, to this day 90% of all yacht clubs in the U.S. will not allow you to bring in a Hobie Cat onto the grounds. It's a shame that it has to be that way, but look at how many Hobies there are now. Mountain bikes are here to stay. I don't have to worry about blowing out a tire (I ride over prickly pears without even thinking twice, and even a few barrel cactus). I don't have to worry about being hit by a car except when I ride in the city (which by the way, a mountain bike on the road is a great commuter vehicle - it's a soft, smooth ride, and the handle- bars are comfortable). I don't have to worry about running over any hikers, either, or destroying the environment, or making a lot of noise, or using up precious natural resources. Just give it a try. You'll be amazed how much fun it is to grind up a jeep trail in the Rockies and then haul down the other side with your brakes locked. Shoot - they even make studded snow tires for 'em. Davis Tucker ATT-IS Boulder, CO
smh@mit-eddie.UUCP (Steven M. Haflich) (10/07/84)
FLAME!!!: Rolling over a few barrel cacti ... ??? Rolling a bike over *any* sort of vegetation seems insensitive to environment. Rolling a bike over a slow-growing cactus in the desert is scandalous, even if accidental. You should not use a bike in a manner which makes these accidents likely. I'm sorry to say this, sir, but you seem like just the sort of clod who gives mountain bikes a bad name.
rcd@opus.UUCP (Dick Dunn) (10/11/84)
> FLAME!!!: Rolling over a few barrel cacti ... ??? > > Rolling a bike over *any* sort of vegetation seems insensitive to > environment. Rolling a bike over a slow-growing cactus in the desert is > scandalous, even if accidental. You should not use a bike in a manner > which makes these accidents likely. I'm sorry to say this, sir, but you > seem like just the sort of clod who gives mountain bikes a bad name. If you were too dim to see that he was making a point about durability of the tires, too bad. The poster was from Denver. If he's riding here in the nearby Rockies, (1) It's not desert by a long shot and (2) there's no shortage of cacti. Unless you hike heavily-traveled trails, you're going to step on vegetation. Not every hiker spends all of his time on trails devoid of plants, let alone never stepping off the trail. In other words, think about the overall picture and don't be so damn dogmatic about it. -- Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086 ...Relax...don't worry...have a homebrew.
6912ar04@sjuvax.UUCP (rowley) (10/12/84)
Any idiot who runs over vegetation in a careless manner in such fragile eco-
systems as desert or mountainous regions should be hung, drawn, and quartered.
They and others like them are the ones responsible for the slow death of our
planet's ecological systems. What a bunch of ignorant BASTARDS!
Get out your flamethrowers...
Anthony J. Rowley
"there is no dark side of the moon really,
as a matter of fact it's all dark..."isiw@druri.UUCP (WattIS) (10/15/84)
Well EXCUUUUUSSSE ME! So I'm "contributing to the slow death of the earth's fragile ecosystem", am I? Give me a break. Cactus grow all over trails here, and lots of people have no choice but to step on them while hiking. The ONLY reason I'm being so polite to someone who called me a "BASTARD" (were the caps really necessary?) is that you're from Pennsylvania so you don't know any better. If it's personal attacks that turn you on, move it to net.flame. All you college kids give me a pain. Learn some manners before you start posting, read the discussions of the topic before you get on your high hobby-horse, and try and keep a civil tongue in your head. Why am I even bothering? You obviously missed the point. Davis Tucker AT&T Information Systems Denver, CO w
rogerh@arizona.UUCP (10/18/84)
<ack -- the flames are rising -- I can't restrain myself !> In response to that article by someone in Colorado who defends himself against the charge of cactus-bashing by snotting off at "college students" Look, I been a workingman, now I'm a college student, so watch your mouth, bub. I don't care how much cactus you got now -- if you stomp on it, you're gonna be living in a naked wasteland in a few years. That doesn't matter to me, but other people are going to be living in the wasteland you created. A case in point: one of my favorite Alpine meadows, Jefferson Park up in Oregon, has gone from a flower-filled wonderland to a hardpan erosion pit in three years thanks to stupid users. For heaven's sake, people (foot people and tire people), stay on the trails! Stay off the vegetation (as much as you can)! Be careful -- there are just too many of us. Please! There are some simple things you can do to preserve the woods: stay on the trails; in heavily-travelled areas, use existing campsites; use stoves instead of campfires. In very heavy-use areas, consider wearing smooth soled shoes (eg running shoes) instead of Vibram (does this apply to mountain bikes?). I think that mountain bikes are about like boots: use them respectfully, no problem; be stupid, much damage. Let's exert some social and moral pressure to make sure they're used well. Roger Hayes Tucson, Arizona
sjf@foxvax1.UUCP (S.J. Foley ) (10/18/84)
You're one piece of vegetation that I wouldn't mind laying some tire tracks on.
6912ar04@sjuvax.UUCP (rowley) (10/18/84)
What about the Appalachians? They've been around longer than your Rockies by
a long shot! Anyhow, you ought to come east and see 'em. They may not be high,
but they can be quite steep; besides, there's always the Appalachian Trail
for you mountain bikers to rape!
A. J. R.rcd@opus.UUCP (Dick Dunn) (10/19/84)
> Any idiot who runs over vegetation in a careless manner in such fragile eco- > systems as desert or mountainous regions should be hung, drawn, and quartered. > They and others like them are the ones responsible for the slow death of our > planet's ecological systems. What a bunch of ignorant BASTARDS! > > > Get out your flamethrowers... > Anthony J. Rowley One trouble is that the number of careless idiots destroying fragile ecosystems is countered by perhaps as many ignorant bastards who don't know the difference between careless destruction of ecosystems and passing through. We are PART of the ecosystem--you will never walk through an area which has not felt human footsteps. (Think about it.) If the point is that mountain bikes are destructive, let's hear what happens--not just this "I heard that someone who knows someone in the Sierra Club went to a meeting and..." stuff. We're unfortunately short on real experience reported here. It would be nice to have some real ideas of how much disruption can be caused by bicyclists at various points along the scale [rude..considerate] as compared to hikers. In other words, is TYPICAL behavior of bicyclists a problem? Does the typical mountain bike cause more erosion, say, than the typical hiker? There are probably some odd factors to be considered. One that occurred to me is that mountain bicyclists might be less likely to go peeing in the streams than hikers--and that's a real ecosystem consideration. What other factors can you think of? On the other hand, if the point is no longer mountain bikes but simply another excuse for tantrums, let's toddle on over to net.flame. -- Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086 ...Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it's been.