thielges@uiucdcsb.UUCP (10/29/84)
I know I'm getting into hot water by posting this, but here it goes anyway : I feel that the statement 'bicycles on the road are legal vehicles and there- fore should obey all traffic laws' can be taken a bit too far. Take for instance the ordinary STOP sign. I among many other bikers don't stop at all stop signs. Am I breaking the law ? Maybe so, but I feel that by riding through stop signs in certain situations is justified. To start with, the automobile and the bicycle are two entirely different vehicles. The major differences pertaining to the STOP sign situation are these : 1. A car is a very noisy enviornment. The quietest of cars still emit a fairly loud rumble from under the hood. In addition, the driver is usually insulated from outside sounds by the car's body and windows. Compare that to the almost noiseless coasting bicycle. 2. The driver has many visual obstructions. The hood, rear view mirror, and roof struts block a clear view of the outside world. A bicyclist enjoys a practically unobstructed view. Also, the driver's eye level is lower than the average roof height of cars parked along the street (unless driving a truck or bus). When I ride my bike, my eyes are typically 18 inches above most cars so I can see over parked cars easily. Taking this into account, I think that there are many situations in which A bicyclist could safely cross a stop sign where a driver could not. When I approach a stop sign, I coast and scan up and down the road for approaching vehicles. Usually I can hear them well in advance. If all is clear, I continue to ride. If the intersection is a four way stop, I will wait for any other vehicles waiting before me to clear the intersection first. If any net.bikers have arguements to counter mine, I would ask you to answer the following questions in your response : I am approaching a STOP sign. The land is flat and I can see for a good 1000 yards in all directions (No exaggeration, this is common in the flatlands of central Illinois) Since I see no other vehicles approaching, I ride right through the stop sign. Have I done anything wrong ? If so, then what have I done wrong ? (I will not except 'disobeyed traffic law' as the answer. Remember that it is against the law to drive over 5mph without someone walking before your car in some cities) Bart Thielges ...uiucdcs!thielges thielges@uiucdcs
ribl@hou4b.UUCP (R Blechman) (10/30/84)
>A bicyclist could safely cross a stop sign where a driver could not. > I am approaching a STOP sign. The land is flat and I can see for a good > 1000 yards in all directions (No exaggeration, this is common in the > flatlands of central Illinois) Since I see no other vehicles approaching, > I ride right through the stop sign. Have I done anything wrong ? If so, > then what have I done wrong ? You have done the same wrong as if you were in a *car* in the flatlands of central Illinois! In other words, such instances *do* occur while driving down the road in a car too, so why should it be considered okay for the bicyclist and not the car? Perhaps you should propose that it should be okay for both. Yes, you (and i) have done wrong according to the law. But the law is the law. (profound eh?) Whether one cares to obey it (either while driving through the flats of Illinois or at 3 in the morning) is a different story. :) ron "what stop sign?" blechman hou4b!ribl
jdpravitz@wateng.UUCP (Jim Pravitz) (10/31/84)
[munch]
I aggree with you Bart. So long as there is absolutely no danger to
yourself or anyone else then I will run right through stop signs (when
necessary I do slow down to check first, and then proceed at a 'reduced'
speed). Remember though that if someone hits you it will not only be you
that is hurt ... the guy hitting you could suffer mental anguish as well
for what he has done to you. Therefore a bike rider must be cautious.
Why do I think cyclists can bend the rules of the road? Because these
rules were made to suit a society totally dominated by automobile
transportation. Bicycles are not cars and they do not pack the same wallop
when striking someone (I've been hit by both ... cars ouch bad). If only
bikes existed on the roads we wouldn't need stop signs (?). Anyways
this doesn't mean that we can totally disregard the laws because we DO
have to mix with cars. I would just be peeved if a cop gave me a ticket
because I didn't come to a complete motionless foot-out-of-toe-straps stop
where there was no danger in just yielding at a stop sign (I'd be poor if
they did).
Jim ... UUCP: {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!wateng!jdpravitzhu@sdcsvax.UUCP (T. C. Hu) (11/01/84)
This is in response to the person who asked why stop for a stop sign if I don't see anyone around. One of the basic problems with this attitude is that, even if you don't see anyone, it doesn't mean that no one is there. Human perception is highly context sensitive: we will only notice what we expect to see. This creates a major problem for bicyclists, because people driving cars don't expect to see a bicyclist. Thus, the driver pulls out of a driveway, makes a turn, cuts you off, etc. He/she simply didn't see you. We, as bicyclists, are human, too (maybe a little more :-)). We tend to be looking for cars. The problem is that we just might run into another bike. Physics isn't my forte, but I'd guess that a bicycle-bicycle collision at high speeds can injure/maim/kill. I've heard of lots of accidents caused by one (pseudo-)biker not seeing the other, and I'm always afraid of some (pseudo-)biker riding the wrong way, running stop signs, pulling the right-turn-U-turn-right-turn trick at red lights, etc., and hitting me. So, please, PLEASE, obey traffic laws. It might save your life, and mine. (Then again, you might be out to get me! :-)) --Alan J. Hu sdcsvax!hu
cdshaw@watmath.UUCP (Chris Shaw) (11/02/84)
The reason I blow stop signs is that I can stop within about 3 feet when I go
through. Thus, if I see something I missed, I can stop without hitting
anything. In Europe, it is typical to see very few stop signs (especially in
the flatlands of Holland), since it is assumed that people riding bicycles,
THINK while riding. Crossing streets in Europe is the equivalent of major
jaywalking here... the reason is that the European driving ethic is to avoid
traffic/pedestrians/bikes, not panic stop & jump out of the car and sue the
hell out of what was in the way.
CD Shawharris@uiucdcsb.UUCP (11/02/84)
I recall reading, in some past issue of Bicycling magazine, a discussion of bicyclists' treatment of stop signs. Somewhere in the article it was mentioned that in some states (or just some cities?) bicyclists do NOT have to stop provided the appropriate measures are taken. Does anyone recall specifics of the article and/or know which issue it was in? I believe it might have come up in a discussion of the "Effective Cycling" book. Jon Harris
bill@utastro.UUCP (William H. Jefferys) (11/02/84)
>A bicyclist could safely cross a stop sign where a driver could not. > I am approaching a STOP sign. The land is flat and I can see for a good > 1000 yards in all directions (No exaggeration, this is common in the > flatlands of central Illinois) Since I see no other vehicles approaching, > I ride right through the stop sign. Have I done anything wrong ? If so, > then what have I done wrong ? For what it is worth, Lon Haldeman, when he set his record on the Race Across America in 1983, stopped at *every* stop sign. Even at 3:00 AM when visibility was perfect and there were no other cars on the road (except his support vehicle behind him). If obeying the law is good enough for him, it's good enough for me. -- "When evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve" Bill Jefferys 8-% Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712 (USnail) {allegra,ihnp4}!{ut-sally,noao}!utastro!bill (uucp) bill%utastro.UTEXAS@ut-sally.ARPA (ARPANET)
fred@varian.UUCP (Fred Klink) (11/03/84)
One other point to be made about stop signs and bikes is the response of
drivers to the bike rider that does attempt to obey the law. On nearly
every occasion that I have tried to behave like a car at a stop sign,
i.e. come to a full stop and then proceed after all those vehicles that
stopped before you have gone, one of two things happens:
1. A driver whose turn to go preceeds mine will get either
flustered or angry that I haven't run the stop sign and
that he has to deal with me on equal footing with other
cars. If I've stopped in a track stand (balanced without
unstrapping my feet) the problem is even worse. These
drivers usually wave frantically at me to go with the result
that all other drivers also see this as a signal to go!
The result can be real chaos with, of course, the bicycle
blamed for it all.
2. Drivers either don't see (or decide not to see) the bike rider
and proceed out of turn leaving me to contest for the next opening.
While more potentially dangerous, this situation is easier to
deal with than (1) because I'm used to having my right-of-way
violated.
In these cases I still try not to violate anyone's right of way or make matters
worse, because I find the next driver is usually more reasonable. As with most
social problems, the drivers who cause this one are a minority.
The upshot of all this is that in traffic on a bike I *do* obey the traffic
laws just as I would in my car. When I'm by myself on the road, either with
bike or car, I'm a little more lax about the laws, especially things like
the stop-sign in the middle-of-nowhere. This seems to have worked well for
me as I have no moving violation tickets in 15 years of driving and riding.
I think its very important, for your health if nothing else, that when on
a bicycle you gain the respect of other vehicles by obeying the laws, re-
gardless of how pointless they may seem. Another writer said "the law is
the law" and the social contract we exist under requires that we accept
that no one (at least no one who writes on this net!), is above it.
PS- to the writer who found European drivers more courteous to bikes and
pedestrians-- ever been to Italy or France?wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (11/05/84)
When I biked, the main irritation I found with STOP signs was that they were placed in locations designed to cause the most inconvenience to a cyclist, who did not have the luxury to ignore the ground contours the way a motor-driven vehicle does. For example, going down a hill you would want to build up speed to make going up the corresponding hill on the next block easier or even possible; yet, there, at the intersection at the bottom of the hill, is a STOP sign, forcing you to brake, lose your momentum, and then strain your way pedalling up the next block... I find this situation far more of an imposition than the example given of seeing 1000' all around on flat terrain. That's just more of an inconvenience, forcing you to stop and then regain your cruising speed, no big deal on flat ground. Will
asente@Cascade.ARPA (11/06/84)
> I recall reading, in some past issue of Bicycling magazine, a discussion of > bicyclists' treatment of stop signs. Somewhere in the article it was > mentioned that in some states (or just some cities?) bicyclists do NOT have > to stop provided the appropriate measures are taken. > Jon Harris Several years ago I was stopped and given a ticket in Palo Alto for running a stop sign on my bicycle. This was within the first few months of my becoming a bicycle commuter. I thoroughly deserved it; I hadn't even slowed down. The policeman told me that they don't expect bicycles to come to a complete stop at stop signs, but rather to slow down and yield to any oncoming traffic. Since that time I've been observed going through stop signs at a reasonable and slow pace by police several times and have never gotten stopped. -paul asente "Thanks, Bicycle Repair Man, you saved the day."
cdshaw@watmath.UUCP (Chris Shaw) (11/06/84)
> PS- to the writer who found European drivers more courteous to bikes and > pedestrians-- ever been to Italy or France? Yes.. It's MUCH more hairy than in the northern climes, but all this means is you must be a bit sharper. But then again, I get a terrific thrill out of playing in traffic, so maybe I'm just weird..... But seriously... I didn't mean to imply politeness in the part of European drivers, just a likeable degree of driver-sense, and the realization that biker & ped. are people, too ! CD Shaw
forrest@ucsbcsl.UUCP ( ) (11/06/84)
As far as the bicyles being less dangerous than cars, you should see the campus at the Univ. of Cal. Santa Barbara. Almost everyone here rides a bike, all 14,000 of us. The campus has a network of bike paths which attempt to keep pedestrians away from the bikes. It succeeds moderatly well at this but you should see the bike paths during class break periods. It's worse than the L.A. freeways because everyone goes too fast and there are no stop signs or traffic lights at intersections. There have been some terrible accidents were people have been seriously wounded. I even remember a rumor that someone died as a result of a bike accident. My point is that, given sufficient numbers, bikes can be as dangerous as any other moving vehicle. True, mixing bikes and cars is asking for trouble but even an all-bike environment can be trouble. Jon ubvax!ucsbcsl!forrest
nishri@utcs.UUCP (Alex Nishri) (11/07/84)
I would like to be treated as an equal to cars. I live in downtown Toronto and I enjoy cycling to work (the downtown University of Toronto campus) through downtown streets. The problem is some cars do not treat me as an equal. For example, some cars, when overtaking me, will not respect my right to my lane. I find that much of the problem in making my cycling safe by getting cars to respect my right to the road lies in the fact that so many people on bicycles break rules. Car drivers in general do not know what rules apply to bicycles. When they see a bicycle run a stop sign or go on the sidewalk, this forms their impression of what rules a bicycle follows. One of the advantages of not having "laws meant to be broken" is that behaviour by strangers we deal with every day becomes more predictable. In the case of strangers who are behind the controls of a car, its a matter of life or death. Alex Nishri University of Toronto ... utcs!nishri
geoff@desint.UUCP (Geoff Kuenning) (11/08/84)
In article <188@ucsbcsl.UUCP> forrest@ucsbcsl.UUCP writes: >It's worse than the L.A. freeways because everyone goes too fast and >there are no stop signs or traffic lights at intersections. There have been >some terrible accidents were people have been seriously wounded. I even >remember a rumor that someone died as a result of a bike accident. There is a death approximately every other year on the Hermosa Beach Strand, where they refused to build a bike path to connect with the other 20 miles in LA. The cyclists share the sidewalk with everyone else, with disastrous results in the summer. I believe they are currently installing some sort of surface inimical to all wheeled traffic. One point about busy four-way stops: I find it useful to go simultaneously with a car. This provides a "large object" for other drivers to see; and on at least one side it will protect me from being hit. I get dropped in the middle of the intersection, but by then I am in a position where drivers are more likely to see me. -- Geoff Kuenning First Systems Corporation ...!ihnp4!trwrb!desint!geoff
lab@qubix.UUCP (Q-Bick) (11/09/84)
> paul asente: > Several years ago I was stopped and given a ticket in Palo Alto for > running a stop sign on my bicycle. This was within the first few > months of my becoming a bicycle commuter. I thoroughly deserved it; I > hadn't even slowed down. The policeman told me that they don't expect > bicycles to come to a complete stop at stop signs, but rather to slow > down and yield to any oncoming traffic. Since that time I've been > observed going through stop signs at a reasonable and slow pace by > police several times and have never gotten stopped. The police may not have considered it worth chasing you - if he wants to, a cyclist can usually escape any policeman except one also on a 2-wheeler (even motorized). One warning - you may not get ticketed, but if you get in an accident, you're up the proverbial creek. -- The Ice Floe of Larry Bickford {amd,decwrl,sun,idi,ittvax}!qubix!lab You can't settle the issue until you've settled how to settle the issue.
drp@ptsfb.UUCP (Dale Pederson) (11/10/84)
> As far as the bicyles being less dangerous than cars, you should see > the campus at the Univ. of Cal. Santa Barbara. Almost everyone here rides > a bike, all 14,000 of us. > I even remember a rumor that someone died as a result of a bike accident. The rumor has at least some basis in fact, during my sojourn at UCSB (73-75) two cyclists crashed into one another at night, putting one in a coma and the other in traction. The comatose victim may not have sur- vived. And this all took place after the class break rush!
bruce@fluke.UUCP (Bruce Reynolds) (11/16/84)
> As far as the bicyles being less dangerous than cars, you should see > the campus at the Univ. of Cal. Santa Barbara. Almost everyone here rides > a bike, all 14,000 of us. > I even remember a rumor that someone died as a result of a bike accident. That seems pretty believable. Any place where there are 14,000 cyclists probably has had more than just one cycling-related death. Given the proportion of cyclists who do not wear helmets, fourteen thousand riders could add up to quite a few fatal accidents. bruce << don't leave home without it... >> -- _______________________________________________________________________ Bruce M. Reynolds John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. {uw-beaver,decvax!microsof,ucbvax!lbl-csam,allegra,ssc-vax}!fluke!bruce (206) 356-5421
eugene@ames.UUCP (Eugene Miya) (11/16/84)
<188@ucsbcsl.UUCP> <125@ptsfb.UUCP> > > As far as the bicyles being less dangerous than cars, you should see > > the campus at the Univ. of Cal. Santa Barbara. Almost everyone here rides > > a bike, all 14,000 of us. > > I even remember a rumor that someone died as a result of a bike accident. > > The rumor has at least some basis in fact, during my sojourn at UCSB > (73-75) two cyclists crashed into one another at night, putting one in > a coma ..... > vived. And this all took place after the class break rush! Yes, I went to UCSB, too (73-77). I can see Jon's posting above brought this out. The person who got the coma was a friend of mine. His name is Bill Gordon [a superb up-and-coming climber, did a 5.10a for his first lead!] The accident happened around 10 PM under a bridge East of Campus, so it did not take place on UCSB proper. Neither rider had a light or helmet [I don't wear one either in cycling or climbing, a `cranial prophylactic' in a words of another friend (I know, I know, I am crazy)]. Anyway, Bill and the other guy were found unconscious. Bill did not die, but he is partially paralyzed on his right side for life. A year later or so, they started enforcing (tickets) for riding without lights. There have been numerous other accidents at UCSB. They try to segregate cars from bikes from people. I had two accidents while I was there (and while attending grad school there). Numerous friends, including Jon I remember, also have had accidents. Some of the problems are due to `engineering' re: bikeways designed by automotive traffic engineers, but they were working on this. [I've seen lots of this. Cuty minaturized auto features such as speed bumps in Redondo Beach...]. Still, UCSB has a pretty good system. As with it autos: don't forget the nut behind the wheel. --eugene miya NASA Ames Res. Ctr. {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,vortex}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb.ARPA