bhilden@druxj.UUCP (HildenbrandBE) (06/26/85)
So old Frankie Moser set a new hour record not once but, twice last year. The REAL story is not the weight of his equipment(as some misguided netter would like you to believe) but, the AERODYNAMICS of the bicycle, wheels et. al. To be sure, the disk wheels now in use in International racing are heavy(some weigh as much as 6 lbs.) but, the decrease in wind resistance afforded OUTWEIGHS the disadvantage of the heavier weight over conventional wheels. Give Frankie a conventional pair of spoked wheels that weigh six pounds and we'll see who breaks the hour record. BTW, as far as energy expenditure is concerned, Freddy Bracke, who set the SEA LEVEL hour record in 1967, rates as the fastest of all time. Both Big Eddy and Little Frankie went farther but they were at ~7000 feet so less wind resistance and easier pedaling. As far as Frankies 1984 season is concerned, sure he won Milan San Remo, but, his Giro D'Italia victory was dubious at best. About the only people not paid off were a couple of tourists from Norway who happened to be watching stage 14. Also, Moser's fans literally pushed him up the climbs (the press called it the "Moser train"). Not to mention that he used his disk wheels in both individual time trials and still only beat Laurent Fignon by a minute and a half. So, lets seperate the weight related item from the aerodynamic ones. Bruce Hildenbrand ihnp4!druxj!bhilden
fred@varian.UUCP (Fred Klink) (07/01/85)
Reply to Mr. Hildebrand,
1-- If Moser had beaten the hour record by 200 meters and then collapsed,
I would agree that the his equipment had alot to do with it. In fact,
he beat the record resoundingly twice in a row! The *man* pushing the
pedals did that, not the bicycle. I'm the "uniformed netter" that
posted the original article in which I said that the moon discs on his bike
were heavier than normal and this was *one of several unusual design
characteristics of the bike* I posted it as an interesting counterpoint
to the cycling truism that light wheels are best. It was not a suggestion
that we all adopt six pound wheels. Further, it is the human that provides
most of the air resistance on a bike. This is not to say that a delta
bike with moon discs will not improve time trial times. It will. But
it won't make a second rate rider the world's hour record holder.
I've been associated with racing for 12 years and the myth amoung the press
and the naive fan is persistant that equipment can make enormous
differences in performance of otherwise equal riders.
Speaking of uninformed:
2-- Sure he won Milano-San Remo? You think thats a minor accomplishment?
Moser beat Fignon by "only a minute and a half" in the final time trial
of the Giro? Another minor win by a second rate racer?
You obviously aren't a racer, or if you are you are a very
misguided one. As I recall that time trial was a short one (~17 miles,
less?). In the upper echelons of European racing a 1.5 minute win in
a time trial stage is outrageous and certainly requires more than a delta
bike under you. By comparison, in the final time trial stage (~ 25 miles)
of the Tour
de France in Bourdeux last year, Fignon with delta bike and aero helmet
won by a couple hundreths of a second over Sean Kelly who rode a conven-
tional bike. Maybe Fignon's is just not a time trialist of the first
category?
3-- The European sports press is just like the American. When a performance
goes against expectations, good or bad, the press is likely to look for
and promote an explanation other than the athletic ability of the
participants. That sells newspapers after all!
Sure, Moser won the Giro by a slim margin because Italian
fans "pushed him up the mountain". Leading climbers in the Giro and
other races are climbing about 10-12 mph or faster up grades as much
as 18%-- they must have some tough fans that can run along side a rider
*pushing* him under these conditions for long enough to make any difference
in the outcome of a 3 week race! A second rate racer cannot win a stage
race in Europe by "cheating" and its foolish and uninformed to imply that
one could. Also, the Giro organizers were accused
of tailoring the race to Moser's abilities. It was the French press and
the French teams that made this accusation. To swallow anything from the
French cycling community about an Italian racer in an Italian race is truly
naive. Its like believing everything the US press writes about Russians
and East Germans. Cycling in Europe is a business and everything ultimately
comes down to a business decision including routes. I've never heard
the Dutch complain about the Tour de France even though their top riders
are mostly time trialist/ pursuiter types and must consider all those
mountains "unfair" to them.bill@utastro.UUCP (William H. Jefferys) (07/04/85)
> 1-- If Moser had beaten the hour record by 200 meters and then collapsed, > I would agree that the his equipment had alot to do with it. In fact, > he beat the record resoundingly twice in a row! The *man* pushing the > pedals did that, not the bicycle. . . . > This is not to say that a delta > bike with moon discs will not improve time trial times. It will. But > it won't make a second rate rider the world's hour record holder. > I've been associated with racing for 12 years and the myth amoung the > press and the naive fan is persistant that equipment can make enormous > differences in performance of otherwise equal riders. Amen. As they say, "It's not the bike, it's the motor!" -- "Men never do evil so cheerfully and so completely as when they do so from religious conviction." -- Blaise Pascal Bill Jefferys 8-% Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712 (USnail) {allegra,ihnp4}!{ut-sally,noao}!utastro!bill (uucp) bill%utastro.UTEXAS@ut-sally.ARPA (ARPANET)
bhilden@druxj.UUCP (HildenbrandBE) (07/06/85)
Some of us know, others think so! I guess I have to ruin this reply with some FACTS. *********FACTS ON*********** Several of my friends have ridden the Giro D'Italia and have witnessed Mr. Moser being pushed up the hill in short bursts by spectators. They have also seen members of his team physically restrain other riders while climbing. ********FACTS OFF*********** Hey, look. I am not saying that your idol, Frankie Moser, isn't a great bike racer heck, the guy won a World Championship and 3 Paris Roubaixs, etc. However, its pretty clear to myself and a few other bike persons that his hour record is TAINTED by the use of Aerodynamic wheels, which BTW make a very big difference. Moser only broke the record by about 2% and I bet the Aerodynamic wheels were greater than a 2% advantage. If the wheels didn't make that much difference then why did he use them? Bruce Hildenbrand
fred@varian.UUCP (Fred Klink) (07/08/85)
> Some of us know, others think so! > > I guess I have to ruin this reply with some FACTS. > > *********FACTS ON*********** > Several of my friends have ridden the Giro D'Italia and > have witnessed Mr. Moser being pushed up the hill in short > bursts by spectators. They have also seen members of his team > physically restrain other riders while climbing. > ********FACTS OFF*********** > > Hey, look. I am not saying that your idol, Frankie > Moser, isn't a great bike racer heck, the guy won > a World Championship and 3 Paris Roubaixs, etc. > However, its pretty clear to myself and a few other bike > persons that his hour record is TAINTED by the use > of Aerodynamic wheels, which BTW make a very big difference. > Moser only broke the record by about 2% and I bet the > Aerodynamic wheels were greater than a 2% advantage. > If the wheels didn't make that much difference then why > did he use them? > > Bruce Hildenbrand Did I say that the wheels were not an advantage? Did I say spectators did not push Mr Moser? You've spoken to riders who were in the Giro, so you're one up on me. I was stating an opinion that a racer doesn't get to Moser's position in the sport by using weird equipment and being pushed up hills, which seemed to be the point of your posting. I think we can basically agree to disagree on the role of these factors in Moser's success. Incidentally, I just read that Moser won the final time trial in this year's Giro as well. He beat Hinault, probably the best time trialist in Europe right now. I assume they both used disk wheel bikes(?). Also, Hinault and Moser teamed up to win the Barrachi Trophy last season, which should be additional testimonial to both of their TT skills. Oh, PS, I have very few "idols". I just like to see an accomplised racer get due respect. the final time trial