eirik@tekchips.UUCP (Eirik Fuller) (09/29/85)
In article <4200025@uiucdcsp> leimkuhl@uiucdcsp.CS.UIUC.EDU writes: > >/* Written 10:22 pm Sep 23, 1985 by kehoe@reed.UUCP in uiucdcsp:net.bicycle */ > >Buying a bicycle: Cannondale have the best frames (except for >Gary Klein's frames); also look at Bridgestone bicycles. > > ... >/* End of text from uiucdcsp:net.bicycle */ > > >Is that why Cannondale's recalling their forks? These frames look >like slop, too, with no effort made to fill or polish the welds. It >seems to me Cannondale just runs the tubes under a torch and smothers >everything in Imron. > >If you buy a cheap production bike like the Cannondale, you can't >expect the kind of careful "total job" construction and careful >parts selection that you'll find on a top quality production bike. > > ... > >-Ben Leimkuhler I missed something. What does the quality of a frame made by Cannondale have to do with the quality of a fork supplied by a Japanese manufacturer? Cannondale is recalling some of its Chromoly forks, but even the ones it isn't recalling are steel forks on aluminum frames, and there is simply no need for Cannondale to manufacture them itself. Even if Cannondale did a poor job of selecting somebody else's forks, that still is not necesarily a reflection on the quality of its frames. I own a Cannondale, and I assembled four others when I worked in a Schwinn shop. I don't think the frames look like slop. Cannondale's goal is not to manufacture the most aesthetically appealing frames in the bicycle world; if that is your major concern, go ahead and spend twice as much. If there is a structural problem with their "sloppy" welds, it is news to me. Before they "smother" their frames in Imron, they heat-treat them (after welding). The entire process involved some non-trivial engineering; some of us feel that the result, a frame which is stronger, stiffer, and lighter than steel frames, is worth the appearance and price. I personally like the appearance of the oversize tubing, and I have no objection to the appearance of any functional joint (my cousin repaired my Hypercycle frame with an arc welder, and it is still holding). I missed something else. What does the price of a bike have to do with the parts selection? In my opinion, Cannondale does a decent job of this (except maybe a fork here or there). For the ST400, they made the same choice everyone else seems to be making these days, the Shimano new 600 group. Its reputation is deservedly good. On their other models, they do a bit more mixing and matching. What bad decisions do you think they made about parts on any of their models? One more comment: anyone who doesn't like the parts selection Cannondale does can still buy one of their framesets, for noticably less money than Klein's budget model, though for a racer I'm inclined to buy the SR300 and upgrade some of the parts (possibly lace up a pair of tubulars). Buying the whole bike gives the "manufacturer's discount", and I'm sure I can find a use for any leftover parts (I always do). I'm not sure just how much of your anti-Cannondale rhetoric is based on factual evidence of actual problems. If any of it is, I would like to know before I decide whether to buy another, or continue to recommend them to others.
leimkuhl@uiucdcsp.CS.UIUC.EDU (09/30/85)
OK, so I overreacted a bit to the statement "Cannondale frames are best..." I realize they are pretty good budget frames, but I still think you usually get what you pay for. Those handbuilt steel frames from Italy and Japan may not be as carefully brazed as a custom frame, but they do have a proven record of not failing in many years of hard testing. The Cannondale (for whatever reason) does have a fork problem and could have other flaws. As for looks, well that may not be important to you, but for many people it is one of the most important considerations. If you're going to log 2-3 hours per day for several years on the thing, you'd better like the way it looks. Better looks translates into greater enthusiasm, which means you're more willing to spend time on the bike, which means you train better and you go faster. -Ben Leimkuhler
wew@mgweed.UUCP (Ed Weiss) (10/01/85)
I bought a Klein Performance frame two years ago when he
first came out with his "mass produced" budget priced
frame. I ended up buying the complete bike from him
when, as we talked frame sizing, he convinced me that
I'd not find the components cheaper.
Without an exception, Cannondale owners come over to
look at the Klein and start comparing wheel stay length
and tube diameter and weld finishes and paint finish
and weight and color. Gary Klein invented the welded
aluminum frame, argued its merits, and developed the
manufacturing methods and still produces the standard
against which the others are measured.
Ed Weiss
.
w
.eirik@tekchips.UUCP (Eirik Fuller) (10/02/85)
In article <4200027@uiucdcsp> leimkuhl@uiucdcsp.CS.UIUC.EDU writes: > > ... > >As for looks, well that may not be important to you, but for many people >it is one of the most important considerations. If you're going to log >2-3 hours per day for several years on the thing, you'd better like >the way it looks. Better looks translates into greater enthusiasm, which >means you're more willing to spend time on the bike, which means you train >better and you go faster. > >-Ben Leimkuhler Is there general agreement on this (who are the "many" people)? I don't need my vehicle to be a work of art to get enthused about riding it; usually the wind in my face, or getting where I'm going will do it for me. I spend most of my time on the road looking at my surroundings, not my bike; even in less scenic surroundings, this isn't such a bad idea, particularly for such mundane trivialities as obstacle avoidance. An extreme case in this vein: would you buy a gold-plated Colnago? (Don't laugh, I've seen pictures.) If someone gave me one, I'd do my best to unload it, because I certainly wouldn't ride it (I could trade it in for a few practical ones), and I don't have space or taste for such artwork indoors.
fred@varian.UUCP (Fred Klink) (10/03/85)
> >Buying a bicycle: Cannondale have the best frames (except for > >Gary Klein's frames); also look at Bridgestone bicycles. > > > >Is that why Cannondale's recalling their forks? > > I missed something. What does the quality of a frame made by > Cannondale have to do with the quality of a fork supplied by a > Japanese manufacturer? Cannondale is recalling some of its Chromoly > forks, but even the ones it isn't recalling are steel forks on > aluminum frames, and there is simply no need for Cannondale to > manufacture them itself. Even if Cannondale did a poor job of > selecting somebody else's forks, that still is not necesarily a > reflection on the quality of its frames. You can use that argument to justify alot of bad judgement (not necessarily bad engineering). Nearly every manufacturing operation buys "parts" at some level and assembles them. If Cannondale chose a dubious fork it begs the question of what other bad choices they made along the way. The quality of the product is the quality of the finished system's function. Also, why is there "no need for Cannondale to manufacture them itself" when nearly every other top quality framemaker manufactures their own forks with the same care they put into the rest of the frame? The thing to keep in mind is the original posting's unqualified statement that Cannondale make the "best frames"-- no mention of best value, best component selection, intended use, etc. To post on this net that anything is the "best" in response to a request for information is irresponsible. I think its important that any claim of that sort be followed up with a critical response. A responsible posting would say "in my opinion ------- is the best --------- for use by riders who are (tourists, racers, communters). I have used them for 'n' years with (no problems, only these problems...)"
rogerh@bocklin.UUCP (10/04/85)
About the "race-proven quality" of fancy Euro frames: a local club got Team Gitane frames for most of its riders. Very pretty, nice riding bikes -- only problem was, the chainstay broke on over half of them before the end of the season. Right back at the dropout -- same place on every bike. Not a horror story: the importer cheerfully replaced the frames, nobody crashed, nobody injured. But still, fancy isn't always best. And I still love French bikes.
peters@cubsvax.UUCP (Peter S. Shenkin) (10/05/85)
In article <> wew@mgweed.UUCP writes: >Without an exception, Cannondale owners come over to >look at the Klein and start comparing wheel stay length >and tube diameter and weld finishes and paint finish >and weight and color. [...etc.] Well, what did they, and you, conclude from such comparisons? -P. Shenkin Also, any thoughts on Vitus? (cemented aluminum frame). The folks I've run into on the road (metaphorically speaking) who have them love them.
reintom@rocky2.UUCP (Tom Reingold) (10/07/85)
> Without an exception, Cannondale owners come over to > look at the Klein and start comparing wheel stay length > and tube diameter and weld finishes and paint finish > and weight and color. Gary Klein invented the welded > aluminum frame, argued its merits, and developed the > manufacturing methods and still produces the standard > against which the others are measured. > > Ed Weiss I believe you are wrong in saying that Gary Klein invented the welded aluminum frame. He learned to build it in a class offered at MIT. He was, perhaps, the first to offer it for sale. Tom Reingold
wew@mgweed.UUCP (Ed Weiss) (10/08/85)
When Cannondale owners compare their frames to my Klein,
they are generally surprised at the smaller tubes Klein uses,
the longer wheel stays which allow the round tubing to stay
round - not beat in on the outside for crank clearance and
beat in on the inside for wheel clearance, and always nice
things about paint color, braze finish and the way Klein
runs the deraileur cables down inside the down tube.
There are three guys in our club (West Surburban Wheelman,
Lombard, Il) who own the race version of the Cannondale
and do race them. In training rides, two of the three have
trouble maintaining a line and all take outside line on turns.
Whether that is just their technique problem or a problem
with the bike, I don't know. I suspect the bike because
everyone else is riding a tight frame. People who have
ridden my Klein all comment favorably on how smooth it is
to ride ("Like a train on a railroad track!"). Sure this
is because of the big wheel base, but the tubing Klein ues
allows this while keeping the frame stiff and responsive.
I'm anxious to see his racing version of the performance
frame.
I've dirverged a bit here, but I guess to sum up,
the general impression I get from Cannondale bike owners
when they compare it to the Klein is, sure it's neat
and its better but I've got an aluminum bike, too, and
it cost a bunch less!
We have one Vitus owner in the club (bought it a month ago).
Its a great looking bike - conventional looking tubing size -
with chrome lugs and black tubing. The guy is a good time
trialer and we've noticed the bike hasn't slowed him down
a bit - he's still one of the three or four the rest of us
are trying to chase down.
Ed Weiss marc@bmcg.UUCP (Marc Lee) (10/08/85)
In article <366@cubsvax.UUCP> peters@cubsvax.UUCP (Peter S. Shenkin) writes: >Also, any thoughts on Vitus? (cemented aluminum frame). The folks I've run >into on the road (metaphorically speaking) who have them love them. I've been riding a Vitus since the beginning of the summer, about 100 mi./wk., and I guess I'm in the category of people who love them. I cross some of the hillier areas in Southern California on my way to work, and I've never really noticed a problem with frame-flexing during climbing, even with a 21-tooth cog on the infamous Torrey Pines grade (I don't know the % - any locals know?) Incidentally, I weigh about 150. I've also put the frame through some things too involved (and dumb) to mention here, that give me complete confidence in the glued joints. The only negative I've heard, which didn't happen to me, is that the a 25 mm. seat post, which the frame is designed for, is actually a little too small, and the lugs can crack if the binder bolt is over tightened. The recommended solution is to use a Bador seat post, which has been designed for the Vitus frame. I use a Campy and have not had a problem.