s255@sol1.UUCP (alcmist) (10/09/85)
A couple of nights ago I found myself sharing a dark road with a bicyclist
wearing jeans and a dark jacket. He had no reflectors on his bike, and no
lights. Within a quarter of a mile I watched him ride in circles on a road
with a 45mph speed limit, run a red light, and cut from the right-hand side
of a busy road to the left, where he proceeded to ride against the traffic.
I should say right away that this note isn't a flame about bicycles or
bicyclists. I know from observation that bicyclists average out as much
more responsible road users than car drivers do. I've done enough bicycling
that when I'm in my car, I give bicycles every break I can.
The reason I mention this incident is so you'll know what I'm talking
about when I ask
WHAT THE HELL DO I DO ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE THAT?
I was trying, hard, to keep that idiot in sight so I could avoid him.
I lost sight of him anyway, more than once. I'm still upset at the idea
that I could have collided with him.
So I'd really like to hear what the many responsible bicyclists out there
have to say on the subject. Should I have flipped on my high beams (quartz
halogen; I would have been able to see the bicycle, but would have blinded
oncoming cars)? Should I have tried to pull over in front and talk to him,
or would that seem like harassment? Should I have called the cops?
I honestly want your advice, and will incorporate it into my driving
habits.
Fred Wamsley ihnp4!sol1!s255tuba@ur-tut.UUCP (Jon Krueger) (10/13/85)
In article <354@sol1.UUCP> s255@sol1.UUCP (alcmist) (Fred Wamsley ihnp4!sol1!s255) writes: > >A couple of nights ago I found myself sharing a dark road with a bicyclist >wearing jeans and a dark jacket. He had no reflectors on his bike, and no >lights. Within a quarter of a mile I watched him ride in circles on a road >with a 45mph speed limit, run a red light, and cut from the right-hand side >of a busy road to the left, where he proceeded to ride against the traffic... >I'd really like to hear what the many responsible bicyclists out there >have to say on the subject. As a driver, I don't know what you should do with a bicyclist like that. As a bicyclist, I do know that it's jerks like that one that make drivers hate all bicyclists. So I suppose you ought to avoid hitting him, but I would feel justified in honking at him. -- -- Jon Krueger UUCP: ...seismo!rochester!ur-tut!tuba BITNET: TUBA@UORDBV USMAIL: University of Rochester Taylor Hall Rocheseter, NY 14627 (716) 275-2811 "A Vote for Barry is a Vote for Fun"
reintom@rocky2.UUCP (Tom Reingold) (10/13/85)
Lines: 24 > A couple of nights ago I found myself sharing a dark road with a bicyclist >wearing jeans and a dark jacket. He had no reflectors on his bike, and no >lights. Within a quarter of a mile I watched him ride in circles on a road >with a 45mph speed limit, run a red light, and cut from the right-hand side >of a busy road to the left, where he proceeded to ride against the traffic. > >WHAT THE HELL DO I DO ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE THAT? > > I honestly want your advice, and will incorporate it into my driving >habits. > Fred Wamsley ihnp4!sol1!s255 The number and severity of his violations were so severe that there is little you could have done. Either he knew how wrong what he did is or will have to learn the hard way. The only possibility would have been was to gently remind him of his foolishness if and only if you had the chance to pull up beside him. If not, then let him get hit. He has been educated about society and cooperation. (At least we are allowed to assume so.) Tom Reingold 36 Ellwood St New York, NY 10040 (212) 304-2504
barrys@hercules.UUCP (Barry Steel) (10/14/85)
First of the bicyclist is totally wrong and you are right to be worried about running it over (potential lawsuits, hassles, quilt). 1) If you stop and give the the cyclist some advice, it is not likely to take it. 2) Calling the police would probably be the most effective (if they came in time). 3) Turning on your high beams would probably not too healthy for the oncoming drivers (they wouldn't understand why you did it). 4) Although not very safe, a memorable message to the cyclist (or anyone behaving dangerously on the road) is to coming to a gut wrenching, all four tires screeching halt near the offender, tell then that you almost hit them. That sure wakes them up. I still recommend a good lecture from the police to take care of the problem, though. barry steel
fish@ihlpg.UUCP (Bob Fishell) (10/15/85)
> > A couple of nights ago I found myself sharing a dark road with a bicyclist > wearing jeans and a dark jacket. He had no reflectors on his bike, and no > lights. Within a quarter of a mile I watched him ride in circles on a road > with a 45mph speed limit, run a red light, and cut from the right-hand side > of a busy road to the left, where he proceeded to ride against the traffic. > WHAT THE HELL DO I DO ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE THAT? > I was trying, hard, to keep that idiot in sight so I could avoid him. > I lost sight of him anyway, more than once. I'm still upset at the idea > that I could have collided with him. > So I'd really like to hear what the many responsible bicyclists out there > have to say on the subject. Let's get some terms straight first. "Bicyclist" does not apply to the individual you describe. "Idiot" is a much better term, but "punk kid" is probably the best by far, since the sort of behavior you describe can usually be attributed to an irresponsible boy between 11 and 16. The usual methods of dealing with such individuals apply: treat them exactly as if they are blind, deaf, and brain-damaged, because the amount of attention they'll pay to you is about the same. Try approaching them slowly, flicking your brights, and passing with as much room as you can manage. Don't bother talking to the kid; if his parents haven't dealt with him, you can't either. Most local laws prohibit bike riding without reflectors or lights, but you know that there's never a cop within 20 miles when you see somebody doing an anus imitation in traffic. __ / \ \__/ Bob Fishell ihnp4!ihlpg!fish
powers@noscvax.UUCP (William J. Powers) (10/15/85)
> > A couple of nights ago I found myself sharing a dark road with a bicyclist > wearing jeans and a dark jacket. He had no reflectors on his bike, and no > lights. Within a quarter of a mile I watched him ride in circles on a road > with a 45mph speed limit, run a red light, and cut from the right-hand side > of a busy road to the left, where he proceeded to ride against the traffic. > I should say right away that this note isn't a flame about bicycles or > bicyclists. I know from observation that bicyclists average out as much > more responsible road users than car drivers do. I've done enough bicycling > that when I'm in my car, I give bicycles every break I can. > The reason I mention this incident is so you'll know what I'm talking > about when I ask > WHAT THE HELL DO I DO ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE THAT? > I was trying, hard, to keep that idiot in sight so I could avoid him. > I lost sight of him anyway, more than once. I'm still upset at the idea > that I could have collided with him. > So I'd really like to hear what the many responsible bicyclists out there > have to say on the subject. Should I have flipped on my high beams (quartz > halogen; I would have been able to see the bicycle, but would have blinded > oncoming cars)? Should I have tried to pull over in front and talk to him, > or would that seem like harassment? Should I have called the cops? > I honestly want your advice, and will incorporate it into my driving > habits. > Fred Wamsley ihnp4!sol1!s255 My personal opinion is that you had certainly done more than the jerk deserved or could expect. My experinece is that talking to these idiots is a waste of time. The only way that these people are going to learn is for them to have the s__t scared out of them; and, believe me, this will certainly happen to them if they live long enough. Bill Powers.
rdb@drutx.UUCP (BurnhamRD) (10/15/85)
This might be a solution to your problem with the invisible rider, depending on the situation of course. I would stay behind the rider as long as there was a chance of hitting him. This should be done any time because even a good rider cannot control such things as poor road conditions. In your case two things should happen (1) the rider should become aware of his actions (2) traffic will backup behind you. If this attracts the police all the better. If you know the rider talk to his parents. They may not be aware of the danger he was in, he will not tell them I am sure. Bob Burnham
rcd@opus.UUCP (Dick Dunn) (10/16/85)
> >A couple of nights ago I found myself sharing a dark road with a bicyclist > >wearing jeans and a dark jacket. He had no reflectors on his bike, and no > >lights. Within a quarter of a mile I watched him ride in circles on a road > >with a 45mph speed limit, run a red light,... ...and more descriptions of idiotic/suicidal behavior... Well, it's not ethical to hit him--thou shalt not take evolution into thine own hands--BUT, as a cyclist I know how much it scares me when someone honks very close to me when I'm not expecting it. I might be very tempted to honk when I got really close to him (just to see if he reacts the same way:-) Flame at this if you will, but whether the guy dumps or not 'cause you honked at him, if he goes home and swears never to get on a bike again, everyone is better off. Yes, I mean scare the shit out of him, but with noise. (DON'T try to come close with the car--that's far too dangerous a game.) -- Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086 ...Simpler is better.
barrys@hercules.UUCP (Barry Steel) (10/16/85)
>Let's get some terms straight first. "Bicyclist" does not apply to the >individual you describe. Unfortunately for us, "bicyclist" does apply... barry steel
reintom@rocky2.UUCP (Tom Reingold) (10/19/85)
> My personal opinion is that you had certainly done more than the jerk > deserved or could expect. My experinece is that talking to these > idiots is a waste of time. The only way that these people are going > to learn is for them to have the s__t scared out of them; and, believe > me, this will certainly happen to them if they live long enough. > > Bill Powers. People don't learn from having the s__t scared out of them, so it's not such a good idea to try to make someone learn that way. Just do what you can, even if that means nothing. Let him learn or not learn. Let him live or die, whichever he prefers. Tom Reingold
knf@druxo.UUCP (FricklasK) (10/21/85)
> > A couple of nights ago I found myself sharing a dark road with a bicyclist > wearing jeans and a dark jacket. He had no reflectors on his bike, and no > lights. Within a quarter of a mile I watched him ride in circles on a road > with a 45mph speed limit, run a red light, and cut from the right-hand side > of a busy road to the left, where he proceeded to ride against the traffic. > Fred Wamsley ihnp4!sol1!s255 In Boulder, where I live, I find some of the bicyclists are INCREDIBLY self-righteous about their riding. By this I mean that if they are allowed to use the right lane, even when the road narrows to one lane they will use the single lane, riding dead center, rather than moving to the right to let cars pass or going onto the sidewalk. If they are going to make a left turn, they will ride dead center of the left lane for the 1/4 mile or so leading up to the turn. Etc., etc. This is usually ok, except for when they get a little rediculous about it- in other words, riding the right lane even when they have a bike path. Occasionally, you even see a "violent biker" -- these guys seem to intentionally get in your way when driving just to cause you grief. Last summer I saw the worst example of this yet. A car was waiting to make a right turn at an intersection, and a biker pulled up along side of him. The car pulled out and started to make the turn, cutting off the biker. The biker pulled out his frame pump and started to ram on the car with it! The car driver opened his window and told the biker to stop it, but this seemed to only piss off the biker more, and he now got off his bike and started to kick the guy's door, putting a fairly large dent in it. The drivers solution: he backed up, drove over the guys bike, wrecking it completely, and drove off. The punchline: the biker (according to a friend) tried to sue the car driver for destruction of property. Has anyone else seen anything like this? '`'` Ken `'`'
clarke@utcsri.UUCP (Jim Clarke) (10/21/85)
In article <1023@druxo.UUCP> knf@druxo.UUCP (FricklasK) writes: >In Boulder, where I live, I find some of the bicyclists are INCREDIBLY >self-righteous about their riding.... > Occasionally, you even see a "violent biker" -- ... Last >summer I saw the worst example of this yet. A car was waiting to make a >right turn at an intersection, and a biker pulled up along side of him. The >car pulled out and started to make the turn, cutting off the biker. The >biker pulled out his frame pump and started to ram on the car with it! ... [more lurid details] > Has anyone else seen anything like this? Sounds like the wild west is on two wheels now. However, I saw an event something like this, though toned down, a couple of months ago. During morning rush hour on a fairly narrow two-lane street that terrifies me daily, I watched a cyclist squeeze in beside a small car, just managing to get into its blind spot as the traffic started to move. Naturally the cyclist was alarmed, and banged on the car (I'd do that too, just to avoid getting killed, if I'd gotten myself into that situation). Somewhat surprisingly, when the danger was over, he began to shout at the driver about how stupid *she* was. (Yes, it was a woman in a small car -- you know, the most aggressive kind on the road :-)) I expostulated with him (that's what biking's for, no?) and his rage was at least deflected. He claimed she'd been in *his* lane! To be fair, there is a lot of confusion here over the rules of the road for bicycles, but in this case good sense and the law do seem to agree that you can't go and take over someone else's bit of road. -- Jim Clarke -- Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 (416) 978-4058 {allegra,cornell,decvax,ihnp4,linus,utzoo}!utcsri!clarke
marko@tekecs.UUCP (Mark O'Shea) (10/22/85)
We bikers are no different than any other group (eg, motorists, religious, etc.). We range in type from sane and sensible to flaming jerks. Just judge us individually, please. Mark O'Shea Hopefully one of the former.
bill@utastro.UUCP (William H. Jefferys) (10/23/85)
> In Boulder, where I live, I find some of the bicyclists are INCREDIBLY > self-righteous about their riding. By this I mean that if they are allowed > to use the right lane, even when the road narrows to one lane they will use > the single lane, riding dead center, rather than moving to the right to let > cars pass or going onto the sidewalk. If they are going to make a left turn, > they will ride dead center of the left lane for the 1/4 mile or so leading up > to the turn. Etc., etc. This is usually ok, except for when they get a little > rediculous about it- in other words, riding the right lane even when they > have a bike path. Please, let's not encourage people to ride on the sidewalks. It is incredibly dangerous (much more dangerous than riding properly on the street). Just today I saw someone nearly get hit by a truck coming out of a driveway, and a friend of mine was killed many years ago the same way. For statistics, Palo Alto mandated sidewalk riding a number of years ago, and the accident rate was way up. The police chief called the policy a "disaster". The ordinance was repealed after about a year. I don't object to bike paths as long as they are part of the road. I refuse to use a bike path that is separated from the roadway, since they subject me to the same dangers that sidewalks do. The dangers of separate bike paths have been well documented. Lane sharing: It's not safe to share a lane if it is too narrow. 12 feet *minimum*, and John Forester (an engineer who has written extensively on bicycle traffic engineering) recommends 14. You bet I will take the center of the lane if it's too narrow for a car to pass safely. But I will also move to the right when it is safe. I don't know how wide the lanes are in Boulder, but we have a lot here in Austin that are too narrow for lane sharing. -- Glend. I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hot. Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? -- Henry IV Pt. I, III, i, 53 Bill Jefferys 8-% Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712 (USnail) {allegra,ihnp4}!{ut-sally,noao}!utastro!bill (UUCP) bill@astro.UTEXAS.EDU. (Internet)
rob@nitrex.UUCP (rob robertson) (10/27/85)
In article <95@utastro.UUCP> bill@utastro.UUCP (William H. Jefferys) writes: >I don't object to bike paths as long as they are part of the road. I >refuse to use a bike path that is separated from the roadway, since >they subject me to the same dangers that sidewalks do. The dangers >of separate bike paths have been well documented. I lived in the Netherlands for four year. They had bike paths and they worked GREAT. The path was right next to the sidewalk, usually with a grass median between the bike path and the road. The bike paths week bricked/tiled and were very smooth and clean. It beats the H*ll out of riding in the roads. I think that bike paths are not inherantly dangerous, I think it is more the way drivers have been educated in this country ("thar's cars, and kids shouldn't be riding their bikes in our road, they may get hurt"). Overall, I'd like to compare Dutch bicycle accident stats with American ones. -- rob robertson decvax!cwruecmp!nitrex!rob.UUCP (216) 791-0922 cbosgd!nitrex!rob.UUCP nitrex!rob@case.CSNET nitrex!rob%case@csnet-relay.ARPA
bill@utastro.UUCP (William H. Jefferys) (10/30/85)
> In article <95@utastro.UUCP> bill@utastro.UUCP (William H. Jefferys) writes: > >I don't object to bike paths as long as they are part of the road. I > >refuse to use a bike path that is separated from the roadway, since > >they subject me to the same dangers that sidewalks do. The dangers > >of separate bike paths have been well documented. > > I lived in the Netherlands for four year. They had bike paths and > they worked GREAT. The path was right next to the sidewalk, usually > with a grass median between the bike path and the road. The bike > paths week bricked/tiled and were very smooth and clean. It beats > the H*ll out of riding in the roads. > > I think that bike paths are not inherantly dangerous, I think it is > more the way drivers have been educated in this country ("thar's cars, > and kids shouldn't be riding their bikes in our road, they may get > hurt"). Overall, I'd like to compare Dutch bicycle accident stats with > American ones. While it may seem obvious that separate bike paths are safer than riding on the road, the statistics we have in this country do not bear this out. The National Traffic Safety Commission made a study some years ago that showed that *in the U. S.*, the accident rate among *experienced* cyclists riding on bike paths that were completely separate from the traffic was equal to that on the *most heavily trafficked roads*. No one knows why this is so. Perhaps it is the generally poor engineering of such facilities; perhaps it is the difficulty of keeping pedestrians and dogs off of them. But the bottom line is, they are not safe. You are far better off on a lightly or moderately travelled road with no bike path. Bike paths that are partially separated from the road (for example with a berm or other barrier), but which force the cyclist to cross traffic at intersections, or which are themselves crossed by driveways, are extremely unsafe and should be avoided at all cost. I agree it would be interesting to compare the Dutch and American experience, but it is not clear to me that such a comparison would be very meaningful, because there are many other variables. I did read an article several years ago by a cyclist who was very anti-bikepath, but found the Dutch paths to be an entirely different situation. So your experience is not unusual. The question is, with the attitudes towards cycling in the U. S., can the Dutch experience be transplanted here (assuming it can be demonstrated that it is worthy of emulation)? Would it be cost-effective, compared to other uses of the money such as in education programs, considering the great differences in traffic mix between here and there? The answers aren't obvious. -- Glend. I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hot. Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? -- Henry IV Pt. I, III, i, 53 Bill Jefferys 8-% Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712 (USnail) {allegra,ihnp4}!{ut-sally,noao}!utastro!bill (UUCP) bill@astro.UTEXAS.EDU. (Internet)