clarke@utcsri.UUCP (Jim Clarke) (01/21/86)
Quite a while ago -- uh, last October, I'm afraid -- I posted a request
for opinions or, even better, information on the usefulness or dangers
of the red flags that you can attach to your bicycle, projecting out into
the traffic. I have one myself and thought I had noticed that, while
it increased the average space that motorists left around me, the number
of near misses was about the same or perhaps even more than without the
flag. I hoped to find out whether there was a consensus among experienced
bicycle commuters on the utility of these things.
I'm sorry to have taken so long to summarize. Although all the replies
are interesting, you can see there is no consensus -- one reason for the
late summary. (I kept hoping God would reply and tell us what to do.
But I guess God has something even better than Usenet.)
Since the people who replied all said useful and interesting things, I
have taken the liberty of attaching their names and (where it didn't take
too much space) their net addresses. Hope nobody minds.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cca!lamb@decvax.UUCP (Charles Lamb)
I have used one of these on both my bikes, logged about three thousand miles
with them and come to the conclusion that they help more than they hurt.
I have had a few experiences where people will maybe try to lean out the
window and try to grab it, and a few more where I felt as if people were
trying to drive right up to the flag, but for the most part I think it
helps.
I have the "Bike->Up" flag on both my bikes. Supposedly it is made out
of some retroreflective material that is really good at night. I've had
sag drivers confirm this for me. It may be that they are really just
intended for night riding and what you really need during the day is
one of the tall flags that stick up.
I'd be curious to know what other people think about the flags.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <psuvax1!PSUVM.BITNET!E8D@ihnp4.UUCP>
Ah Toronto, I do admire someone who commutes regularly over those bejesus
streetcar tracks. (Mind you when I last cycled there I was just back from
Europe, loaded down and thouroughly jet-lagged.)
Well, I'm very interested in your question about the flags. Could you
post a summary of replies to the net? I'm afraid I can't help too much since
I don't have one. The Dutch seem to love them. The ones I've seen don't seem
to stick out more than the handlebars so maybe they mess up the driver's
perception of how wide the bike is. Maybe they make you look like a road-hog
which in my experience is more important than how much space you actually take.
It seems to me that plain old visibility ("conspiscuity"?) is more important
than your "give me room" sign. You could paint your child seat (or your child)
day-glow orange. [I had mentioned that I usually ride with a child, when I
first posted. -- jc]
Good luck to you and the Jays. [I *told* you the summary was late!]
Evan Dresel
Dept. of Geochemistry E8D @ PSUVM (bitnet)
318 Deike Bldg. ...!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!e8d (uucp <-->
Penn State University bitnet gateway)
[Parts of my reply included for interest...
You're right about street-car tracks. The first helmet in our family was
for the then current kid, after I blew it on the tracks. When you go down
with a child, his head hits the ground.
...
The child seat *is* dayglo orange. The child is not, though he wears a
red jacket in appropriate weather. Reminds me of another issue: those
stupid straps the child-seat manufacturers supply. We decided to replace
ours with a harness from Mothercare.
Further comment, made while summarizing:
I've always thought the purpose of the flags was not so much to make you
visible as to provide a very visible projection that looks like it might
scratch a car's paint. Drivers are much more nervous about damaging their
cars than about squashing something soft, like a cyclist.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <tektronix!tekred!joels@uw-beaver.UUCP>
I have no experience, but I have always thought that one of those flags
would make a tempting target.
Joel Swank
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Chris Kardish <ecf_eck@jhunix>
Perhaps a viable means of working this problem through would be to
extend the flag holder about 2-pedal widths from the side of your bike.
I've never tried it myself, but had thought that I would have the same
problem you're having if I ever did, and thought this a good method to
overcome this problem
Chris Kardish
ecf_eck@jhu.CS-NET
ecf_eck@jhunix.UUCP
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your evaluation that the red flag on your bicycle may be more
dangerous than without may be correct. Motorists seem to be always
pushing the limits, such as the speed limit. I ride on busy streets
also. I do not use a red flag, but I do make use of the white line
on the street when I can. I find that many motorist will drive as
close to me as they can without crossing that line. On a narrow
street this makes me very nervous.
Bob drutx!rdb
[In reply to the preceding message, I posted this:
Oh, to have a white line! Here we share the rightmost lane with the cars.
When there is a white line, it defines the rightmost edge of the roadway,
and vehicles are not supposed to travel to the right of the line. Bicycles
are legally vehicles here.
... I guess the point of this note is just that the
flag issue is a bit different here, since we're out there in the cold with the
cars. Sounds like Denver might be a better place to be.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: fred@varian.UUCP (Fred Klink)
There's a principle supposedly used by traffic engineers that anything
that attracts too much of a drivers attention without having an immediate
and obvious meaning is hazardous. The reason being, the motorist tends
to look at the object a bit too intently and unconsciously drive *toward*
it! I've heard or read that that's why those long poles with an orange flag
on the end that were popular with cyclists a few years ago have gone
(deservedly) away. I have an experience with a leg light that may confirm
that. I was riding one night and was nearly side-swiped by a station
wagon that looked alot like my girlfriend's mother's car. Stopping at her
house after the ride, the mother saw me unstrapping the leg light and
said "Oh, that was you. I thought it was a UFO" Good thing for me
she decided against saving the earth that night!
Sender: toddv@copper.UUCP
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Missouri, I commuted to my job 4 days a week on a bicycle. I worked the
midnight to eight shift. I became interested in being seen. Some of the
items I currently use are:
1. I place my belt beacon on the back of my Bell helmet. There is a little
bit of orange strap to hook it on sticking through the helmet on my model.
This raises the light considerably for more visibility, and it has the
advantage that it never flashes in my eyes.
2. I have one of those reflective flags mounted on a spring attached to the
left side of my back stays. (It's up near my leg, not down by the
wheel -- I always have trouble with the names of bike parts). The motion
attracts attention.
3. I bought some 3M white reflective tape and used it to pin strip my helmet
around the base. It blends right in in the daytime. I also have some pin
striping on my frame with red tape. I even pin striped my fenders.
4. I have two stripes of yellow reflective tape around each of my three water
bottles.
5. I have several reflective stripes around my Zefel pump.
6. I have a headlight that stays on when I stop, a tail light, an arm light,
and a leg light.
7. I wear a reflective vest. I bought one of the kinds with the silver
reflective stripes, and I sewed bright yellow reflective stripes on to it.
The yellow stripes show up well in the daytime as well as the night.
Recently I bought a 3M vest that is entirely constructed of 3M reflective
material for use on my motorcycle. My wife says it looks like a huge light
when she follows me in the car. These are spendy ($40) but worth every
penny.
8. Of course, I have the usual reflectors front and back, on the pedals, and
even the kind that go on my wheels (which make them "hop" at high speeds).
9. I have reflective dots on my shoes and brake lever supports,
my seat post is wrapped with white reflective tape, etc, etc, ad nauseum.
I decided to submit this to the net in case I had ideas others had missed.
Make those cars run you down on purpose, :-)
Todd Vierheller
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final thoughts: So what to do? The last two very helpful and knowledgeable
but mutually contradictory responses encapsulate the problem, which I think
is that some motorists will get you if you don't have a flag, and others
will get you if you do. I've begun to ride mostly without the flag (it can
easily be folded out of the way, so I have a choice each time I set out)
but my style has changed -- I now tend to ride down the middle of the lane,
if that leaves space in another lane for cars to get past. That doesn't
stop anyone from coming very close to me if they feel like it, though it
does make it harder to fit an extra stream of cars in by going too close.
So I'm not happy. After thinking about it carefully, I'm not as happy
commuting by bicycle as I used to be. If you're commuting too, I wish us
both luck.
--
Jim Clarke -- Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4
(416) 978-4058
{allegra,cornell,decvax,ihnp4,linus,utzoo}!utcsri!clarke