kmgopinathan@violet.waterloo.edu (Krishna Gopinathan) (02/26/88)
With regard to the current discussion in ont.jobs about job hunting in Canada (started by a software engineer from the US moving to Canada), I would like to pose some questions (ok, I agree this should go in the yet-to-be-created comp.industry for those of you who object to reading this in comp.misc) I was under the impression that *very* little software development goes on in Canada ( :^) Canada exports lumber and imports high-tech. :-) ) though I would agree that much of what does go on occurs in Toronto. What are the advantages of developing software in Canada over the US, and when did the software industry in Canada attain any significant proportions? Would you say that today it has any significant impact on the Canadian economy? Does the software industry in Canada consist more of multinationals (guess who??) or Canadian-owned companies? I would appreciate hearing from you -- opinions as well as facts welcome. -- Krishna
sjl@myrias.UUCP (Stuart Lomas) (02/27/88)
kmgopinathan@violet.waterloo.edu (Krishna Gopinathan) writes: > I was under the impression that *very* little software development goes > on in Canada ( :^) Canada exports lumber and imports high-tech. :-) ) though > I would agree that much of what does go on occurs in Toronto. What are > the advantages of developing software in Canada over the US, and when did > the software industry in Canada attain any significant proportions? Would > you say that today it has any significant impact on the Canadian economy? > Does the software industry in Canada consist more of multinationals (guess > who??) or Canadian-owned companies? While I am not well informed about the position of the software industry in Canada generally, I can observe that my wife an I are both employed producing software in Edmonton. Her company builds builds custom hardware and software that is sold worldwide, including the US and Japan. My company is currently developing hardware and software for a new parallel supercomputer; the software includes the operating system, language tools, and some applications. Each company has about 60 employees, and each was founded and is controlled in Canada. I am aware of numerous smaller companies in Edmonton, mostly doing contract programming. There is a very successful company in Calgary that makes a system to translate word processor formats, and sells it worldwide. There is another company in Calgary that does a substantial portion of the compiler development and support for CDC. There are numerous companies in Calgary making software for the oil industry - reservoir and well log analysis, for example. You don't have to think very hard to come up with a wide variety of companies across Canada that produce a substantial amount of software - Develcon, Gandalf, NovaTel, Pacific MicroTel, Softwords, Mobile Data, HCR, Bell Northern Research, to name a few. Most, if not all, of these companies are Canadian owned and controlled. Also, most of them are not in Toronto. What are the advantages of producing software in Canada? 1) You get to live in Canada. 2) We have a large supply of well educated software people. 3) We have a healthy and growing software industry. 4) We have a growing domestic market, and good access to a wide variety of international markets, particularily in the US and the far east. 5) Many Canadian governments actively encourage the establishment and growth of high tech companies in their jurisdictions. Stuart Lomas Myrias Research Corporation Edmonton, Alberta {ihnp4,mnetor,ubc-vision}!alberta!myrias!sjl
daniel@bnr-di.UUCP (Daniel Zlatin) (02/29/88)
In article <5358@watdragon.waterloo.edu>, kmgopinathan@violet.waterloo.edu (Krishna Gopinathan) writes: > I was under the impression that *very* little software development goes > on in Canada ( :^) Canada exports lumber and imports high-tech. :-) ) .... > .... Would > you say that today it has any significant impact on the Canadian economy? > Does the software industry in Canada consist more of multinationals (guess > who??) or Canadian-owned companies? I don't know what the percentages are, but I would certainly say that software development has a significant impact on the Canadian economy. In particular, I think you have to realize that much software development goes out packaged inside products that aren't perceived as "software". Two examples that I can point at (and I'm sure there are lots more) are: 1) Telephone switches produced by Northern Telecom and sold throughout the world (what can I say -- I'm biased, since BNR does the R&D for those switches....) contain more than 5 million lines of code (can you even *conceive* of that amount?). Although it is called a telephone switch, or a PBX, or whatever, and looks like hardware, I think that the costs in developing it are divided about 50-50 between software and hardware. 2) Flight simulators made by CAE Electronics. These also are perceived to be "hardware", but again, must (by their very nature) contain scads of software created for the specific purpose of controlling the complex hardware necessary to simulate the feeling of flight. Of course on top of this there is a lot of software developed "in-house" by many companies for more mundane applications. And don't overlook the software produced by companies such as Spar Aerospace, Develcon, MacDonald Dettwiler, Microtel Pacific, SED Systems, Bristol Aerospace, etc., etc.... Most of this software would (once again) be hidden inside products or projects that are not immediately identifiable as bearers of software. If the question was raised in addressing the area of "meta-software" :-) (software that helps us produce other software: compilers, operating systems, editors, CASE tools, etc., etc.) which are then sold in-and-of-themselves as products, I'm not sure how Canada would rank. But we certainly produce a lot that is not quite as visible as these off-the-shelf software products. Daniel Zlatin Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada best path: DANIEL@BNR.BITNET second best path: ...utzoo!bnr-vpa!bnr-di!daniel
clewis@lsuc.uucp (Chris Lewis) (02/29/88)
During a job hunt several years ago, I had an opportunity to speak to
the Software Director of a VERY LARGE US multinational who was responsible
for something like 200 people in their development group out in Rexdale
(the location being the principle reason why I didn't go work for them).
He had been given the opportunity to start up his group either in California
in the Bay Area (where much of their hardware development goes on) or
some other place. He chose Toronto. Why? Well, he mentioned several
advantages:
1) The total cost of operation in Canada (even Toronto) is about
half of what it is in California. Some, but not all of this
is in salaries.
2) The staff turnover is considerably less - if you think the
head-hunters here are bad, you should see Silicon Valley.
3) Most importantly: potential staff are FAR (emphasis his!)
better educated here than down south.
One of the things you should bear in mind when you think about software in
Canada is industry sector.
It may appear to you that relatively little "high-tech" development is going
on - because so few openings appear in the newspapers for them.
That's *not* because there is little high-tech going on. It's because as
you get further and further into high-tech the advertisements would be
addressing smaller and smaller potential audiences. None of the jobs
I've had (quite a few as my friends would attest) ever advertised in a
newspaper. They were all through word-of-mouth or head hunters. Inspite
of the fact that most head-hunters cannot seem to understand the industry
beyond "how many lines of COBOL did you write last year?"), they can
frequently connect you to someone who does speak the same language (C of
course!).
I suppose that many new graduates that find themselves disinterested in
COBOL or RPG will discover to their dismay that there aren't many ads
in the sorts of jobs they're interested in. And start thinking about
moving to the US. Well, it isn't necessary. Start asking around, there's
lots of companies. Use head hunters until you get to a point where you
have a network of contacts and know what's going on and where.
Some of the larger companies: BNR is doing all kinds of programming on
all kinds of machines. And probably has several thousand software people
across the country. Then there's Amdahl, IBM, CDC, Northern, the oil
companies, and Provincial and Federal governments. All of which have
very large numbers of software people working for them. Along with
the Banks etc. All of the aforementioned companies are doing UNIX
work (to a greater or lesser extent) in Canada. Some pretty "high-techy"
too - compilers, O/S ports, database systems etc.
--
Chris Lewis, Non-resident C-news Hacker,
Real: {uunet!mnetor,utcsri!utzoo,ihnp4!utzoo,utcsri!utzoo}!spectrix!clewis
Virtual: {same as above}!lsuc!clewisbrad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) (02/29/88)
And in spite of the difficulties, you might be surprised at what Canadians have done, although many of them, like entertainers, do it south of the border. Consider Cognos, around a $100M company. And look at the microcomputer industry... Quantum Software Systems' QNX is one of the major Non-DOS OS's For a long time Batteries Included was the largest Atari ST publisher, but it went under for a number of reasons having nothing to do with its nationality. Many other Atari and Commodore products come from here, a few of them mine. In languages, all the Watcom products, at WATFOR derivatives, plus most languages for Honeywell mainframes, plus ALICE Pascal. 8-) The Xim Database In Spreadsheets, VP-Planner and Vip-Professional, SQZ! and 3-2-1 Blastoff. Plus the product manager for Lotus 1-2-3 is Canadian. The integrated package Ability was written by Canadians here in Waterloo. In Tools, the Coherent operating system, the MKS toolkit, and the various less reputable Quaid products like Copywrite. In the early days of the industry, MicroChess, the most popular program of its time, was from here. Lattice's HighStyle Deskstop publisher and Laser Friendly's "Office Publisher". --- and many more. The surprising thing is that these products survive in spite of all the problems here, from border crossing difficulties to trade barriers to the problems caused by excessive government grants and interference (Xanaro, Graham Software). If the border barriers ever do truly drop, what happens may be quite astounding! -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
daveb@geac.UUCP (David Collier-Brown) (02/29/88)
And not to let a good opportunity pass by, there is at least one
Canadian computer manufacturer, with its own machine architecture,
suite of operating systems (including you-know-what), normal and
special-purpose languages and all the normal infrastructure.
Geac makes high-performance transaction-processing machines for
the banking and library industries. And writes the software that
makes them go.
--dave (biased) c-b
--
David Collier-Brown. {mnetor yunexus utgpu}!geac!daveb
Geac Computers International Inc., | Computer Science loses its
350 Steelcase Road,Markham, Ontario, | memory (if not its mind)
CANADA, L3R 1B3 (416) 475-0525 x3279 | every 6 months.daveb@geac.UUCP (David Collier-Brown) (02/29/88)
In article <1444@looking.UUCP> brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >And in spite of the difficulties, you might be surprised at what >Canadians have done, although many of them, like entertainers, do it >south of the border. And don't forget Brian Kernighan, Tom Cargill and all sorts of Canajan Bell-Labs people. -- David Collier-Brown. {mnetor yunexus utgpu}!geac!daveb Geac Computers International Inc., | Computer Science loses its 350 Steelcase Road,Markham, Ontario, | memory (if not its mind) CANADA, L3R 1B3 (416) 475-0525 x3279 | every 6 months.
lyndon@ncc.UUCP (Lyndon Nerenberg) (03/01/88)
clewis@lsuc.uucp (Chris Lewis) writes: > Some of the larger companies: BNR is doing all kinds of programming on > all kinds of machines. And probably has several thousand software people > across the country. Then there's Amdahl, IBM, CDC, Northern, the oil > companies, and Provincial and Federal governments. All of which have > very large numbers of software people working for them. Along with > the Banks etc. All of the aforementioned companies are doing UNIX > work (to a greater or lesser extent) in Canada. Some pretty "high-techy" > too - compilers, O/S ports, database systems etc. There is some interesting work happening in western Canada as well. * Myrias Research Will soon be shipping a 256 (?) processor parallel system. I don't know about the hardware design, however the majority of the software (OS, compilers, etc) is being developed in house, and they have been looking for numerical analyst types to convert existing numerical applications to their environment. * IDACOM Design and manufacture various communications protocol analyzers. Some people claim their among the best in the world. The Japanese gov't seems to agree as their PTT has signed a fairly substantial contract with them. * Teletronic Communications These guys have designed a very state of the art WAN system that runs over existing cable TV equipment, integrating voice, video, and data. The above three companies are located in Edmonton. There is also Develcon and a few others. Of the three, Myrias does the most "advertising", spread between the careers section of the major Canadian newspapers and USENET :-) The majority of people I know who work for these companies were either involved with the startup of the company, or hired through word of mouth referrals, and have quite a bit of related experience. Most of these jobs are not suited to freshly graduated university students, and a lot of headhunters still don't know what UNIX is... It's not surprising most of the hiring is done "underground." Besides, NOBODY from California wants to move north to a job that requires them to spend two hours after work shoveling through the snow in the parking lot trying to find their car (let alone trying to start it at -40C :-) --lyndon
greg@xios.XIOS.UUCP (Greg Franks) (03/04/88)
Regarding writing software in Canada.... Granted, Canada may not be a hot bed for MesS DOS applications, but we certainly do *lots* in the area of communications. BNR and Mitel here in Ottawa are always looking for people... Have fun! -- Greg Franks XIOS Systems Corporation, 1600 Carling Avenue, (613) 725-5411 Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, K1Z 8R8 utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!xios!greg "There's so much to sea in Nova Scotia"
glee@cognos.uucp (Godfrey Lee) (03/09/88)
In article <1444@looking.UUCP> brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >Consider Cognos, around a $100M company. Well, actually around $75M company, we are working on $100M++. We are also listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange, and in the U.S. NASDAQ. We have offices worldwide, dare I say a Canadian multinational? >Quantum Software Systems' QNX is one of the major Non-DOS OS's It is used by the Ontario Government for education. I also know of several firms in Toronto involved with the Commodore Amiga computer. Comspec sells hardware like memory. Very Vivid sells a system called Mandala that is a video-interactive system that blows your mind (so reported many times - wish I could see it). Imagine a projection TV, a person standing in front of screen, a video camera pointed at person, all hooked up to the Amiga. Now imagine the computer generates graphics on the screen, and interacts with the person's movements... the ultimate video game! >The Xim Database ZIM database, by Zanthe of Ottawa. >In Tools, the Coherent operating system, the MKS toolkit, and the various >less reputable Quaid products like Copywrite. MKS toolkit is very nice. Don't forget OfficeSmith, SystemHouse, XIOS, Canadian Geovision,... >The surprising thing is that these products survive in spite of all the >problems here, from border crossing difficulties to trade barriers to >the problems caused by excessive government grants and interference >(Xanaro, Graham Software). I, for one, have adopted Canada (came to Canada when I was 18), and like it a lot. I am glad that the work I am doing is exciting, and the only people doing comparable work are in Boston, California, or Toronto. [not strictly true, I am sure, but you know what I mean] -- Godfrey Lee P.O. Box 9707 Cognos Incorporated 3755 Riverside Dr. VOICE: (613) 738-1440 FAX: (613) 738-0002 Ottawa, Ontario UUCP: decvax!utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!cognos!glee CANADA K1G 3Z4
fortin@zap.UUCP (Denis Fortin) (03/10/88)
In article <5358@watdragon.waterloo.edu> kmgopinathan@violet.waterloo.edu (Krishna Gopinathan) writes: >[on the topic of job opportunities in Canada in software development] >I was under the impression that *very* little software development goes >on in Canada ( :^) Canada exports lumber and imports high-tech. :-) ) Well, that's not entirely true! At CAE Electronics, we have about 1500 engineers/physicists/computer scientists/wizards/etc who are developing thousands and thousands of lines of code each year. Our applications include Flight Simulators, Control Systems, Power Plant Simulators, etc etc etc. >though >I would agree that much of what does go on occurs in Toronto. Well, I don't know about the rest of the industry (:-), but we're in Montreal. >Would you say that today it has any significant impact on the Canadian economy? I'm not sure whether you consider us a "software house" (:-), but we do export more than 90% of our production out of Canada. >Does the software industry in Canada consist more of multinationals (guess >who??) or Canadian-owned companies? CAE *is* a canadian company. >I would appreciate hearing from you -- opinions as well as facts welcome. I hope this helps... -- Denis Fortin | fortin@zap.UUCP Group Leader, Real-Time Systems | fortin@cae.UUCP CAE Electronics Ltd | philabs!micomvax!zap!fortin The opinions expressed above are my own | fortin%zap.uucp@uunet.uu.net
ray@micomvax.UUCP (Ray Dunn) (03/11/88)
In article <5358@watdragon.waterloo.edu> kmgopinathan@violet.waterloo.edu (Krishna Gopinathan) writes: >With regard to the current discussion in ont.jobs about job hunting in >Canada (started by a software engineer from the US moving to Canada), >I would like to pose some questions (ok, I agree this should go in the >yet-to-be-created comp.industry for those of you who object to reading >this in comp.misc) >I was under the impression that *very* little software development goes >on in Canada ( :^) Canada exports lumber and imports high-tech. :-) ) though >I would agree that much of what does go on occurs in Toronto. >I would appreciate hearing from you -- opinions as well as facts welcome. > >-- Krishna Unfortunately I haven't time to give this the full answer it deserves, however, in case no-one else disputes the point, I would like to say that Toronto is probably NOT the epi-centre of hi-tech software development in Canada. This I would suggest, is probably Ottawa and area (Canada's Silicon Valley). I do *NOT* want to turn this into a city X is better than city Y argument (who cares). In addition to Ottawa, and, I presume much in the west and on the west coast, there is *lots* going on here in Montreal. My company is the largest developer and manufacturer of IBM PC clones in Canada, and is a major player in office automation systems. Other examples here in Montreal - Matrox, just up the road, is a major developer of hi-tech graphics systems and has just won a large multi-million dollar order from the US Army; Bell Northern has major R & D facilities; the developer of LOGO compilers to most of the well known systems; there are at least 2 other IBM clone companies, and many small start-up companies with hi-tech, software intensive products; CAE, a world leader in Aircraft, Nuclear power station, and other simulation systems, all software controlled; AES, office automation, renowned as being the first company producing word processing systems; etc. etc. The above is a partial list of companies whose *product* is software based, missing from the list are the *many* DP installations and software development work being done to support the business world, civil engineering, aircraft manufacturing and etc, here in Montreal! Ray Dunn. ..{philabs, mnetor, musocs}!micomvax!ray