jss@sjuvax.UUCP (J. Shapiro) (02/03/85)
[Aren't you hungry...?] Well, it seems I have been hoisted on my own petard. I owe an apology to Motorola. I made many comments to the effect that as far as normal mortals like me were concerned, 68020 samples were vaporware. I suspect they are true, but I would now like to know who to talk to for the manuals. You see, I finally got a hold of samples from National - or more accurately, from Omega, their local tech company. These parts came without the promised bug lists, were not current revisions, and were not the requested speeds. In addition, other parts I had requested, and was assured were available turn out not to be in silicon yet - e.g. the hard disk controller chip set. I have asked for current revisions - specifying the revision letter, and it seems that they cannot be gotten by Omega. Each sample they order comes back rev K, and I have been told rev N is the thing to wait for. I have also been told that rev N is available... I will believe it when I hold the silicon in my hot little hands. I have learned a lesson about credibility. I am glad that I do not have megabucks involved in National. Perhaps some kind soul at Motorolla might tell me who to get in touch with (and telno) for the manuals for the 68020 and 68881. It seems that national has not yet got their act togther. To those I have lambasted in my confidence in National, I owe a sincere apology. I have learned somthing (sigh). Jonathan Shapiro Haverford College
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (02/07/85)
Don't slam National too hard until you try to get Motorola to admit
that there is a non-empty bug list for the 68020. Yes, there *is*
a 68020 bug list.
--
Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henrysrm@nsc.UUCP (Richard Mateosian) (02/08/85)
In article <794@sjuvax.UUCP> jss@sjuvax.UUCP (J. Shapiro) writes: > > You see, I finally got a hold of samples from National - or more >accurately, from Omega, their local tech company. These parts came without >the promised bug lists, were not current revisions, and were not the >requested speeds. > >Each sample they order comes back rev K, and I have been told rev N is the >thing to wait for. I have also been told that rev N is available... I will >believe it when I hold the silicon in my hot little hands. > > Perhaps some kind soul at Motorola might tell me who to get in touch >with (and telno) for the manuals for the 68020 and 68881. Jonathan, I am truly sorry that you've been jerked around so much, but the truth remains that, though supplies are short, many rev N 32016s have been shipped. Of course, they have been shipped first to customers who have been working with the Series 32000 for years and who have production sockets they desperately need to fill. Surely this is neither uncommon nor unreasonable, but I can well understand how frustrating it is to smaller customers. Having waited this long, you can, I hope, wait for our production to ramp up to the point that your local distributor will be stocking the parts you want. Meanwhile, *do* read the 68020 manual. It's extremely informative, especially when you read between the lines. I'm sure oakhill!davet will be happy to send you one. -- Richard Mateosian {allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!srm nsc!srm@decwrl.ARPA
sjl@ukc.UUCP (S.J.Leviseur) (02/08/85)
The response you get seems to vary with who you deal with. I was involved in a project using the 32016 in the UK. We found that you got by far the best response from dealing with Nat Semi direct. They were always very helpful and provided us with samples and buglists. Obviously Nat Semi would rather you went through their distributors but these have a vested interest in moving old stock, or just are not as knowledgable. We repeatedly asked for G mask and got F mask chips ( it was that long ago! ). Approaching Nat Semi direct solved this. Distributors in the USA may be more knowledgable. sean sjl@ukc.UUCP ..!mcvax!ukc!sjl
shannon@sun.uucp (Bill Shannon) (02/09/85)
> Don't slam National too hard until you try to get Motorola to admit > that there is a non-empty bug list for the 68020. Yes, there *is* > a 68020 bug list. > -- > Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology > {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry Of \course/ there's a 68020 bug list, the chip isn't even into production release yet! They're still sending out evaluation samples. You expected maybe the chip would be perfect the first time? Give me a break! The 68020 has only been sampling for a few months, how long has the 32016 (aka 16032) been out? Bill Shannon
jss@sjuvax.UUCP (J. Shapiro) (02/11/85)
[Aren't you hungry...?] I am sorry to see that Richard Mateosian, though kind in intention, missed my point. I can understand that the newer revisions might go to companies with a history with National - someday I will appreciate the same treatment (if I stick with the parts that long). This attitude I fully agree with, though the precedence system should damn well be explained to the people who will be on the short end of it (as well as those for whom it is positive). Far more important is the fact that the chips were: a) Not up to speed. I have heard many things about the recent push to get 10 Mhz Rev N parts out. Given that, it seems absurd that I can't even get an 8 Mhz Rev K part. b) FAR MORE IMPORTANT, having the piece of silicon, I can't even build an automated toilet flusher for lack of a bug list. This is inexcusable. Mr. Mateosian and I have discussed in private the deplorable nature of National's local tech support people. He suggested talking to pioneer, which I did. The problem there is that they have to deal with the same damn bumbling incompetence that I do. <FLAME OFF> I am sorry, ladies and gentlemen, but it is terribly frustrating and I am sick and tired of being patient while losing out to competitors because some ass somewhere in the chain of command can't get his shit together. As I said in my first posting, I am *GLAD* I do not have a large amount of money committed to National. If things do not improve quickly I will seek to make that commitment less than it is. More unfortunate is the fact that I personally feel National's architecture to be better than Motorolla's (matter of opinion - no flames please). Perhaps National has a spot for a marketing VP??? I would be happy to take on the job for a few years. At least then I would get buglists and many of you wouldn't be going bankrupt. Jon Shapiro Haverford College
chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) (02/13/85)
I've been doing some checking around, and we are trying to make sure that
the updated information gets to the interested parties. Solves this case,
mostly, but in some ways it doesn't solve the problem.
A good part of the problem is simply that a distributor like Omega works on
commission and doesn't have the time or resources to really deal with very
low volume accounts such as teachers and grad students (three sets of
chips, a set of manuals, and you never hear from them again). It tends to
get very expensive for them to do this handholding, so they try to minimize
it, justifiably so. But we don't want to cut the schools out from our
product, so what we've done here at National is set up a University support
program to help get the information and materials needed out to the people
in the school. If you're working with National parts, and are having
trouble getting the information you need, drop me a line and I'll do what I
can do get you hooked into the program.
chuq
--
From left field, near the warning track: Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA
Even though a poem be a thousand words, but made up of senseless words, one word
of a poem is better, which if a man hears, he becomes quiet. --The Dhammapadahenry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (02/21/85)
> Of \course/ there's a 68020 bug list, the chip isn't even into > production release yet! They're still sending out evaluation > samples. You expected maybe the chip would be perfect the first > time? Give me a break! The 68020 has only been sampling for a > few months, how long has the 32016 (aka 16032) been out? Bill, you have my complaint precisely backwards. Of course there's a bug list. But for a while, trying to get Motorola to *admit* it was a little difficult... They were quite definitely trying to give the impression that the chips were perfect on the first shot. Ho ho. By contrast, National has been very cooperative about supplying bug lists. It's the content of said lists that I could live without... -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry