brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) (05/10/85)
FIRST: This is not a general chart about all Jews or Nazis SECOND: This is a defence of freedom, not an attack on Jews. My ancestry is Jewish enough that Hitler would have put me or my mother in a camp, had we been in Germany. Many Nazis: Many Jews: ------------ -------------- Desire suppression of Jews, Desire suppression of Nazis and are willing to kill to do it. and are willing to jail them to do it. Will not be satisfied untill race Will not be satisfied until Nazi is wiped out thought is wiped out State the Jews have a secret State the Nazis have/had a conspiracy conspiracy to control the world and to rule the world and hurt the "good hurt the "good guys" guys." (They have a lot more evidence for their claim, mind you!) Deny the above Jewish claim Deny the above Nazi claim Brutally murdered millions of Jews Nazi thought almost totally wiped out now, not entirely by the Jews but with their firm support and encouragement To repeat, I am not saying the death camps weren't there. I am NOT saying that Jews are like Nazis or use Nazi tactics. I am saying that that we are guilty of doing similar things, to a far lesser degree, and one shouldn't be thrown in jail for saying what "everybody knows is false." That logic jailed Galileo, and burned Bruno at the stake. In a less free world we would have done the same to Einstien, Darwin, Scopes or Martin Luther. -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (05/12/85)
> To repeat, I am not saying the death camps weren't there. I am NOT saying > that Jews are like Nazis or use Nazi tactics. I am saying that that we are > guilty of doing similar things, to a far lesser degree... I fail to see any guilt involved, actually. What you have presented is an excellent demonstration of a basic fact: Jews and Nazis cannot share the universe in peace. It is silly to blame the Jews, however lightly and apologetically, for recognizing this and acting accordingly. The Jews are blameworthy [is that a word?] only if a better way exists and they are not pursuing it. I see none. It is a popular myth that there is *always* some sort of compromise position that will let everyone live happily ever after. > one shouldn't > be thrown in jail for saying what "everybody knows is false." That logic > jailed Galileo, and burned Bruno at the stake. C'mon, Brad, you can come up with better examples than that. Citing Galileo and Bruno is such a common tactic that it turns people off, especially considering some of the uses it's put to. It is also, by the way, a largely-false misconception. Galileo was jailed for stating his respectable, widely-supported (even by some Church astronomers) theories as proven facts, which they were not, and for invoking improper theological arguments to support them (a bad move, since he was not a theologian and didn't understand the religious issues involved). If the man had been a bit more polite, he might never have gotten into trouble; the last straw was a book which had an obvious moron representing the Church viewpoint in a fictitious debate. Bruno was, roughly speaking, a nut, and the helio- centric universe formed only a minor part of his odd beliefs. Even Kepler thought him insane. Semmelweiss [sp?] would be a more realistic example. Or your later mention of Luther, since there was a time when the Church would cheerfully have burned him at the stake if they had gotten their hands on him. Returning to the subject... "the University Theater in Toronto was on fire at 2000 EDT 7 May 1985" is something that everybody knows is false. But if I'd shouted "fire" in that place at that time, I might well have gone to jail. For good reason, too; theater panics kill people. Clearly there are circumstances where it *is* appropriate to punish someone for statements that are thought to be incorrect, Galileo and Bruno notwithstanding. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry
brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) (05/12/85)
My point in this Henry is that armed suppression of opposing beliefs is the greater evil. Any evil of deed is an order of magnitude worse than any evil of thought or word. Should Zundel attack a Jew, jail him. Consider the logic that jails these people. For me, communism and socialism are schools of thought which cannot coexist with my desire for individual freedom. Communists state their goal is to deprive me of freedoms and properties which I feel should be mine. But to be a McCarthy is to descend to their level - to answer words with guns. If they attack with guns, we must defend ourselves in kind, but if they attack with words, then our defence must be with words, if possible. Sometimes an attack of words is so immediate that it can not be defended against in kind. Shouting "FIRE" to cause panic is such an attempt. Those who do it are aware that their attack can't be countered with words. Men like Zundel are not in such a position. Are we so foolish and irresponsible that we must be protected from the ideas of others? Even when we have been conditioned with the "never again" message since birth? (Baby boomers all have.) Is Zundel such a danger we must lock him up? As for Keegstra, he was not acting on his own. He violated the rules about what he was payed to teach, and misused his public-granted authority as a teacher. Such things can be published as they should be, with the content of the material he tought having no bearing on the case. -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
lionel@garfield.UUCP (Lionel H. Moser) (05/13/85)
Brad Templton <267@looking.UUCP> writes: > ... > > Sometimes an attack of words is so immediate that it can not be defended > against in kind. Shouting "FIRE" to cause panic is such an attempt. > Those who do it are aware that their attack can't be countered with words. > Men like Zundel are not in such a position. Zundel and his ilk don't *have* to attack Jews directly. Their aim is to incite others to do so. Directly. > > Are we so foolish and irresponsible that we must be protected from the > ideas of others? Even when we have been conditioned with the "never again" > message since birth? (Baby boomers all have.) Is Zundel such a danger > we must lock him up? Yes. Never again. Lionel Moser, CS Dept., M.U.N., St. John's, Nfld. utcsri!garfield!lionel
dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) (05/13/85)
Really, Brad. The difference, as you well know, is that there is
no such thing as an "innocent" Nazi who just "happened to be born"
in the wrong place at the wrong time. Comparing hatred of Jews
and the murder of millions of entirely innocent people to hatred
of those who embrace a philosophy of such murder is absurd.
Dave Sherman
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{ ihnp4!utzoo pesnta utcs hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave