ignac@electro.UUCP (Ignac Kolenko) (12/19/88)
in noting that Bourassa is using the not withstanding clause and planning to continue to enforce the french only sign law for outside, with a predominance of french inside, it leads me to wonder - is the french culture so fragile that signs must be forced to be french. Bourassa says on Canada AM this morning that this would allow an immigrant to quebec to realize that its a french culture that resides in this province. but i can't understand how forcing a restaurant or a stereo shop to have a french only sign is promoting that culture or even furthering the french cause throughout canada. if anything, this is gonna turn people off of french more than ever. just getting ready for the poly-sci exam i got this afternoon :-) -- Ignac A. Kolenko "Squeeze my lemon, let the juice run watmath!watcgl!electro!ignac down my leg!" - Led Zep (Lemon Song) "Ask me no further questions, I WILL NOT answer!!" - Spock (ST:TOS Amok Time)
gilles@alberta.UUCP (Gilles Simon Dionne) (12/20/88)
In article <230@electro.UUCP> ignac@electro.UUCP (Ignac Kolenko) writes: >in noting that Bourassa is using the not withstanding clause and planning to >continue to enforce the french only sign law for outside, with a predominance >of french inside, it leads me to wonder - is the french culture so fragile >that signs must be forced to be french. Bourassa says on Canada AM this morning >that this would allow an immigrant to quebec to realize that its a french >culture that resides in this province. but i can't understand how forcing a >restaurant or a stereo shop to have a french only sign is promoting that >culture or even furthering the french cause throughout canada. if anything, >this is gonna turn people off of french more than ever. > >just getting ready for the poly-sci exam i got this afternoon :-) > > >-- >Ignac A. Kolenko "Squeeze my lemon, let the juice run >watmath!watcgl!electro!ignac down my leg!" - Led Zep (Lemon Song) >"Ask me no further questions, I WILL NOT answer!!" - Spock (ST:TOS Amok Time) - It promotes the culture by directly exposing people to the language - I don't think Bourassa is trying to further the cause of french throughout Canada at all, he probably understands that each time Quebec deals in a way which is perceived to be unfavorable by the english minority in Quebec, he actually gives further ammunition to the premiers of the other provinces to deal unfavorably with their own minorities. - I don't understand why you say that this will turn people off french. As has been the case since Bill 101, people will have to have some rudimentary french to understand what the signs are saying. If english signs became commonplace again, you would just be sending the message to the english community that french isn't necessary anymore( at least as far as understanding signs is concerned). Gilles
louis@auvax.UUCP (Louis Schmittroth) (12/20/88)
In article <230@electro.UUCP>, ignac@electro.UUCP (Ignac Kolenko) writes: > in noting that Bourassa is using the not withstanding clause and planning to > continue to enforce the french only sign law for outside, with a predominance > of french inside, it leads me to wonder - is the french culture so fragile > that signs must be forced to be french. Bourassa says on Canada AM this morning I'll jump into this with a flame, and I do have the asbestos suit on. In Malaysia, which is 60% Malay, 30% Chinese, and 10% Indian etc., there is a real movement to protect, or even enhance the use of Malay as the national language, and the Malays are racist, but even there, signs are permitted to be in Malay, English, Chinese, or Hindi, and there seemed to be a feeling that the consumer should judge, and spend his/her money where he/she liked the signs. The Quebecois are a bunch of infantile racist fascists, at least on this business of signs. Bah, they should have separated. Flames welcomed. -- Louis Schmittroth, Computer Science, Athabasca University auvax!louis
lrbartram@watcgl.waterloo.edu (lyn bartram) (12/20/88)
In article <561@cavell.UUCP> gilles@cavell.UUCP (Gilles Simon Dionne) writes: (concerning the events in Quebec vis-a-vis the sign law) > - It promotes the culture by directly exposing people to the language As a Quebecoise, i would find it hard to live in any corner of the province and not be exposed to French! > - I don't think Bourassa is trying to further the cause of french > throughout Canada at all, he probably understands that each time > Quebec deals in a way which is perceived to be unfavorable by the > english minority in Quebec, he actually gives further ammunition to the > premiers of the other provinces to deal unfavorably with their own > minorities. Gilles is completely right, and this is a fact which has as yet not been grasped by other Canadians and especially by francophones outside Quebec. Bourassa and the other politicians are not AT ALL concerned with the plight of French outside Quebec. They are concerned with Quebec as the North American Motherhouse of the French language and Quebecois culture. Those anglophones who say "nyah,nyah, Quebec shat on their minority and now we can do it to ours" don't realize that to Quebecois this is a case of apples and oranges. (Not to mention immature on the part of the other provinces.) This will, however, i presume be the death knell for Meech Lake. > - I don't understand why you say that this will turn people off french. > As has been the case since Bill 101, people will have to have some > rudimentary french to understand what the signs are saying. If english > signs became commonplace again, you would just be sending the message > to the english community that french isn't necessary anymore( at least > as far as understanding signs is concerned). I have a problem with this, although i may express it badly. I am one of a vanishing breed ( :) ) - a Quebec anglophone. I, and 5 generations of my family before me, was born and brought up in Montreal. (I am bilingual, although 2.5 years at school in Ontario is eroding my facility with the language.) For seven years I was a member of a small business in Quebec working with 75% French clients. So what does this make me? I have lived in four provinces in Canada, and in Europe, and i am most at home in the polyglot fabric of Quebec. I understand the anguish and frustration of my Quebecois friends who feel immersed in an encroaching cultural tidal wave against which they have only fragile weapons of language legislation. After all, for many years my family sent their children to Europe to learn French (or didn't learn it at all). The English in Quebec had to be forced to learn French - and many refused, and left (to our advantage who stayed, and hopefully to theirs as well). But as has been forcefully pointed out by several journalists, the anglos who stayed HAVE played by the rules. They are bilingual. Their children for a great part attend French schools. These people approached the question from the point of view of those who have already aquiesced to the reasonable requirements of a French society. I want to return to Quebec, but i fell i should have the right to do so as a full citizen, and i don't have that right if i can't advertise in the languages i choose AFTER i obey the requirements of French publicity. This isn't sending a message to anglos that French is "unneccessary". It is, instead, stating that Quebec can tolerate other cultures, as it has traditionally been the best at doing of all the Canadian provinces. One can think of it as a question of enfranchisement. I do not expect English to be an official language of Quebec. I do, however, not expect it to be forbidden! What does this mean for the political process? I don't know, but i do feel that no one's language should be illegal if predominance is given the language of the land. I was recently in Switzerland and France - the people over there think this issue is BIZARRE, since their rules are inclusive (you must advertise in the national languages) as opposed to exclusive (you may not advertise in this language). The more serious issue here is the underlying one of political accountability. The Liberals made a serious campaign commitment to support bilingual signs, and are now reneging. Bourasssa's problem is knotty: as has been pointed out, he has been waffling on this problem for a while, and has no ethical commitment on it one way or another. Thus he's fence-sitting and enraging everyone. Much has been made in Quebec of the fact that it is an "external" court (Supreme) that has judged Bill 101 against an "external" code (CAnadian Constitution). We are all forgetting that the language ruling of this morning is also directly opposed to the Quebec Charter of Rights. The Charter has been ensconced in the province well before the Canadian Charter of Rights and is a source of (justifiable) pride to the citizens of Quebec as an indication of a progressive and tolerant society. Anyway, it is law. The current case went both to the Quebec Superior Court and the Supreme Court of Canada at Bourassa's request, and the fact that the Liberals choose now to ignore the judicial process has more dangerous repercussions than just language legislation. What next?
dave@onfcanim.UUCP (Dave Martindale) (12/20/88)
In the midst of all this, I would like to point out that polls have found something like 70% of the people of Quebec in favour of bilingual signs. So, clearly, there are many Francophones who are willing to co-exist with the English, even if they post bilingual signs. The problem is that the anti-English group is extremely vocal, and this is an extremely emotional issue to them. There have already been comments that maybe bombs are necessary to make their point. Absolutely nobody wants to see a return to violence, and the mere threat of it gives this group a lot of leverage, much more than the moderate majority. This group cares passionately about their vision of a French Quebec, and they really don't care whether that requires suppressing other people's individual rights. Bourassa's solution does not go far enough for this group - they want signs to be French-only both inside and outside. But I think that he hopes he is going far enough in that direction that it will placate most of the anti-English, preserving the "social peace", and undercutting the PQ's support sufficiently to get elected again.
tech@auvax.UUCP (Richard Loken) (12/21/88)
From article <813@auvax.UUCP>, by louis@auvax.UUCP (Louis Schmittroth): > In article <230@electro.UUCP>, ignac@electro.UUCP (Ignac Kolenko) writes: > > The Quebecois are a bunch of infantile racist fascists, at least on this > business of signs. > I can't really argue but I would have chosen my language more carefully. The fanatics in Quebec like to parrot the line about there not being non English signs in English Canada but it just ain't so babe. In any large city you will find no English shop signs, in Edmonton I have seen stores with signs only in Chineese, Italian, and odd as it may seem in French. The Quebecois don't know this, they never look beyond their own border - not even to France where 80% of the radio programming is in English according to a French (not Quebecois) musician I recently heard interviewed. While I am ranting, I also have the impression that the Quebecois are none too tolerant of English speaking Canadians butchering their language but typically English speaking Canadians don't mind English being spindled a bit by the likes of Jean Cretian (spelling?) and Jean Drapeau and John Crosbey. This country may be becoming more tolerant but its all on one side. ********* 73 ********** Richard Loken VE6BSV . **** .. **** Athabasca University .... **** Athabasca, Alberta Canada ..........**** alberta!auvax
derome@ai.toronto.edu (Philippe Derome) (12/21/88)
In article <815@auvax.UUCP> tech@auvax.UUCP (Richard Loken) writes: >The fanatics in Quebec like to parrot the line about there not being non >English signs in English Canada but it just ain't so babe. In any large >city you will find no English shop signs, in Edmonton I have seen stores with >signs only in Chineese, Italian, and odd as it may seem in French. The >Quebecois don't know this, they never look beyond their own border - not even >to France where 80% of the radio programming is in English according to a >French (not Quebecois) musician I recently heard interviewed. I am probably what you'd call a fanatic from Quebec; all the assertions you just made were known to me or did not surprise (I've never been to Edmonton so I could not swear that there were no unilingual foreign signs, but it does not surprise me). I believe that most Quebeckers are well aware of the situation outside Quebec, and yes we do look across the border pretty often. If you disagree with the current language politics in Quebec, I respect your opinion although I disagree with it, but please be careful before making unsound accusation in suggesting we are ignorant about the language realities outside Quebec. Philippe Derome pe.. N N NMike N
gordan@maccs.McMaster.CA (gordan) (12/22/88)
In article <16956@onfcanim.UUCP> dave@onfcanim.UUCP (Dave Martindale) writes: > >The problem is that the anti-English group is extremely vocal, and >this is an extremely emotional issue to them. There have already It is a mistake to imply that those opposed to full bilingualism in Quebec are merely part of a radical fringe. Some members of Premier Bourassa's own caucus are staunch supporters of Bill 101, and were lobbying to have Bill 101 reconfirmed in its entirety. Bourassa, in effect, did no more than bow to certain political realities. If he failed to come up with a solution acceptable to all, it is only because it doesn't exist. The typical reaction in English Canada has been surprise. Unfortunately, the rest of the country went to sleep after the referendum and thought that the "problem" of Quebec nationalism was no longer an issue. Before criticizing Quebec too virulently, remember that it is still the most bilingual province by far. A unilingual anglophone can still get by very nicely in the western half of Montreal. We're not talking some picturesque little multicultural neighborhood or even something the size of Toronto's Chinatown -- in half of the Montreal Urban Community, including half of downtown, you need not speak a word of French.