miller@uwovax.uwo.ca (Greg Miller) (09/26/89)
In article <1178@mannix.iros1.UUCP>, leonard@pivele.iro.umontreal.ca (Nicolas Leonard) writes: > Oh, jusqu'ici ca va... [and subsequent postings in the French language] Is not the group can.francais more appropriate for these postings, after all this is not can.politique? //Greg Miller
tim@ncrcan.Toronto.NCR.COM (Tim Nelson) (09/26/89)
In article <3837.251eb4d9@uwovax.uwo.ca> J G Miller <a4346@uwocc1.uwo.CA> writes: >In article <1178@mannix.iros1.UUCP>, leonard@pivele.iro.umontreal.ca (Nicolas Leonard) writes: >> Oh, jusqu'ici ca va... >[and subsequent postings in the French language] > >Is not the group can.francais more appropriate for these postings, >after all this is not can.politique? Why do you think that we should limit our discussions to a single language? Granted this is the language of international commerce, but if someone wishes to converse in any other language, especially the official second language of this country, why not allow this? Also, if all French language discussions took place in can.francais, it would be such a mess that it would be hard to follow any discussions. If you are still bothered by this, then I suggest a semi-solution: Anyone posting an article in French also, in the same article, post the English translation, and anyone posting an article in English also, again in the same article, post the French translation. That is if the poster knows the other language. Come on now, lighten up. 8-) ================= tim (nelson) | uucp ...!uunet!attcan!ncrcan!tim ncr canada | internet tim@ncrcan.Toronto.NCR.COM (416) 826-9000 | 6865 Century Ave, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada L5N 2E2 ================= * Have a good day, and a great forever.
schuck@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca (Mary Margaret Schuck) (09/26/89)
In article <3837.251eb4d9@uwovax.uwo.ca> J G Miller <a4346@uwocc1.uwo.CA> writes: >In article <1178@mannix.iros1.UUCP>, leonard@pivele.iro.umontreal.ca (Nicolas Leonard) writes: >> Oh, jusqu'ici ca va... >[and subsequent postings in the French language] > >Is not the group can.francais more appropriate for these postings, >after all this is not can.politique? > This is just one of several such postings today. Have I missed something or is French not still one of our official languages in Canada? (Or have these groups been renamed anglophone.general and anglophone.politics?) I will be the first to admit that I don't find it very easy to follow the French postings, but isn't that half the point of the debate? If we deny francophones the right to post in French on a mostly English net, then defending the rights of the English-speaking minority in Quebec starts to look like just self-serving hypocrisy. (Just type slowly, please...:-)) Mary Margaret. o -- ____________________________________________________________________________ My mailer hates everyone. Try to deceive it if possible. schuck@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca {decvax,attcan,watmath...}!utzoo!dciem!schuck ____________________________________________________________________________
martin@utzoo.uucp (Martin Hofmann) (09/26/89)
In article <3837.251eb4d9@uwovax.uwo.ca> J G Miller <a4346@uwocc1.uwo.CA> writes: >In article <1178@mannix.iros1.UUCP>, leonard@pivele.iro.umontreal.ca (Nicolas Leonard) writes: >> Oh, jusqu'ici ca va... >[and subsequent postings in the French language] > >Is not the group can.francais more appropriate for these postings, >after all this is not can.politique? > The name of this group is can.general not can.english! Since french is one of the official languages of canada, I see no reason why one can not write in french in this group. I'm sure there are many people who are sufficiently bilingual to read either english or french postings, and do not want to exclude those people who feel more comfortable writing in french (just as I feel more comfortable writing in english). Those people who cannot read french, can either skip the article or take a french course at their local high school. Il ne faut pas beaucoup pour apprendre assez pour lire. -- The world is sacred. You cannot improve it. | Martin Hofmann, U of Toronto If you try to change it, you will ruin it. | martin@zoo.toronto.edu If you try to hold it, you will lose it. | uunet!attcan!utzoo!martin Lao Tsu, "Tao Te Ching" |
webber@utstat.uucp (Bob Webber) (09/26/89)
In article <3837.251eb4d9@uwovax.uwo.ca> J G Miller <a4346@uwocc1.uwo.CA> writes: >In article <1178@mannix.iros1.UUCP>, leonard@pivele.iro.umontreal.ca (Nicolas Leonard) writes: >> Oh, jusqu'ici ca va... >[and subsequent postings in the French language] > >Is not the group can.francais more appropriate for these postings, >after all this is not can.politique? > >//Greg Miller Pourquoi pas? Consider it a challenge (no, better, an _opportunity_) to learn something about Canada's other official language and other imperialist running dog founding culture. Or a chance to make new friends by politely asking for a translation if your language skills aren't up to par. -- Bob Webber, Office of the Dean of Arts and Science, University of Toronto Internet: webber@artsci.toronto.edu; webber@utstat.toronto.edu UUCP: utzoo!utas!webber; utzoo!utstat!webber
sccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu (S. Crispin Cowan) (09/27/89)
In article <1989Sep26.153200.959@utstat.uucp> webber@utubrutus.toronto.edu (Bob Webber) writes: >In article <3837.251eb4d9@uwovax.uwo.ca> J G Miller <a4346@uwocc1.uwo.CA> writes: >>In article <1178@mannix.iros1.UUCP>, leonard@pivele.iro.umontreal.ca (Nicolas Leonard) writes: >>> Oh, jusqu'ici ca va... >>[and subsequent postings in the French language] >> >>Is not the group can.francais more appropriate for these postings, >>after all this is not can.politique? >> >>//Greg Miller > >Pourquoi pas? Consider it a challenge (no, better, an _opportunity_) to >learn something about Canada's other official language and other imperialist >running dog founding culture. Or a chance to make new friends by politely >asking for a translation if your language skills aren't up to par. This is one of the issues that I consider to be a major problem. Among anyone but civil servants, 'par' in French is about zip. I like it that way. I don't do any significant business with anyone in Quebec. I don't know anyone i Quebec. No significant amount of work in my field (computer architecture) is published in French. Therefore, I am completely un-interested in investing the man YEARS required to acquire the language to any degree of utility. On the other hand, it is becoming a standard requirement that any medium to high level civil servant be bi-lingual. Since bi-lingualism is almost completely non-existant outside of Quebec, this creates a tremendous bias towards people from Quebec. In a predomenantly English country, I regard this as un-fair discrimination. It is also divicive. People tend not to like the federal government now. How will western Canada feel about it when every time they talk to a federal civil servant the first thing they hear is 'Bonjoure', followed by broken english. It's not fun feeling like an immigrant in your native country. Crispin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Login name: sccowan In real life: S. Crispin Cowan Office: DC3548 x3934 Home phone: 570-2517 Post Awful: 60 Overlea Drive, Kitchener, N2M 1T1 UUCP: watmath!watmsg!sccowan Domain: sccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu "Everything to excess. Moderation is for monks." -Lazarus Long >-- >Bob Webber, Office of the Dean of Arts and Science, University of Toronto >Internet: webber@artsci.toronto.edu; webber@utstat.toronto.edu >UUCP: utzoo!utas!webber; utzoo!utstat!webber
desaulni@liszt.mpr.ca (Richard W. Desaulniers) (09/27/89)
In article <29431@watmath.waterloo.edu> sccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu (S. Crispin Cowan) writes: >medium to high level civil servant be bi-lingual. Since bi-lingualism >is almost completely non-existant outside of Quebec, this creates a >tremendous bias towards people from Quebec. In a predomenantly This will come as a surprise to approximately 20% of the bilingual franco-phones who live outside of Quebec! Regards; | | Richard W. Desaulniers | InterNet: desaulni@liszt.mpr.ca
hwt@.uucp (Henry Troup) (09/27/89)
In article <1989Sep26.132533.12660@utzoo.uucp> martin@utzoo.uucp (Martin Hofmann) writes: >The name of this group is can.general not can.english! Since french is one That's right, it's not can.politics. Please take this discussion there. utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!hwt%bnr-public | BNR is not | All that evil requires hwt@bnr.ca (BITNET/NETNORTH) | responsible for | is that good men do (613) 765-2337 (Voice) | my opinions | nothing.
ebspencer@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Bruce Spencer) (09/27/89)
In article <29431@watmath.waterloo.edu> sccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu (S. Crispin Cowan) writes: > It's not fun feeling like an immigrant in your native country. That *is* the point. But for the other side, Crispin. Why does anybody have to feel like an immigrant? Live and let live. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bruce Spencer CS Dept, University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada, N2L-3G1.
norvell@csri.toronto.edu (Theo Norvell) (09/27/89)
In article <29431@watmath.waterloo.edu> Crispan Cowan writes: >People tend not to like the federal government now. How >will western Canada feel about it when every time they talk to a >federal civil servant the first thing they hear is 'Bonjoure', >followed by broken english. > >Crispin What is it you are against (a) Bilingualism in the civil service or (b) Francophone civil servants. If (b), you are being incredibly racist in a predomenantly tolerant country. If (a), you are likely to hear 'Bonjoure' followed by fluent French. >It's not fun feeling like an immigrant in >your native country. Perhaps. But if you feel that way whenever you are speaking in English to a Francophone civil servant, you are being really immature. As a unilingual, I am glad that the civil service has a bias toward people who can speak to the public in the languages spoken by the public. That way I can speak in the language of my choice. And (back to the original point) I am glad that I can post to this newsgroup in the language of my choice. So while I disagree with the content of the recent French postings, I defend their right to be posted. Theo P.s. I don't like the federal government either, but more for what they are saying than for the language they use.
brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) (09/27/89)
You can write in any language you want. Mind you, if you don't write in English, the default language of this net, it would be polite to put "Language: French" on the header or somesuch. But that's not too important. If you write in French, the result will simply be that the large majority of the readers here won't read your posting, or in many cases *can't* read. It's up to you, but posting in such a way to deliberately limit your audience seems unwise. I can understand most of the French postings myself, but not well, and sometimes not well enough to enter the discussion for fear that I have misinterpreted what I have read. In fact, since nobody who doesn't read English would be reading this group, one can only assume that posting en Francais is done to make a point. Canada has two official languages, but if somebody came to you and asked directions in English, to respond in French (when you know English) would be rude. -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
doc@dgp.toronto.edu (Blaine Price) (09/27/89)
In article <22345@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: | If you write in French, the result will simply be that the large majority | of the readers here won't read your posting, or in many cases *can't* read. I would disagree (not that this topic won't be beaten to death anyway...). I think that the vast majority of the people on the net have a high school education and one would assume that those subscribing to can.* are likely Canadian and encountered the French language to some extent in school. I had a lousy High School education in French and I can still make sense of the French postings (although I couldn't respond in grammatically correct French if my life depended on it). -- Blaine Price (416) 978-6619, fax: 4765 doc@dgp.utoronto.{ca,bitnet} Dynamic Graphics Project, Dept. of Computer Sci. doc@dgp.toronto.edu Univ. of Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 ...!uunet!dgp.toronto.edu!doc "Who do I work FOR? I don't work FOR anyone! I'm just having fun."-The Doctor
brian@jtsv16.UUCP (Brian A. Jarvis) (09/27/89)
In article <3837.251eb4d9@uwovax.uwo.ca> J G Miller <a4346@uwocc1.uwo.CA> writes: >In article <1178@mannix.iros1.UUCP>, leonard@pivele.iro.umontreal.ca (Nicolas Leonard) writes: >> Oh, jusqu'ici ca va... >[and subsequent postings in the French language] > >Is not the group can.francais more appropriate for these postings, >after all this is not can.politique? > >//Greg Miller I should think that since the topic at hand was the "fascism" of particular governments dictating where and when a person may use either of the official languages of Canada, the use of French is perfectly justifiable, and a useful reminder of what the issue truly is. And your posting is a poignant reminder that there are people who are willing to dictate which language Canadian citizens must use. I do not recall any decree from the Net.Gods that Usenet is English only. Luv, Brian -- Brian A. Jarvis, J.T.S. Computer Systems, brian@jtsv16.jts.com, Downsview, Ontario ...jtsv16!brian Canada M3H 5T5 (416) 665-8910 History is all too frequently the study of the worst case scenario.
sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) (09/28/89)
In article <1989Sep26.132533.12660@utzoo.uucp> martin@utzoo.uucp (Martin Hofmann) writes: >read french, can either skip the article or take a french course at their local >high school. Il ne faut pas beaucoup pour apprendre assez pour lire. Anyone out there know how I can configure rn to automatically skip articles with french in them :-) -- Stuart.Lynne@wimsey.bc.ca uunet!van-bc!sl 604-937-7532(voice) 604-939-4768(fax)
cs4g6ag@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Stephen M. Dunn) (09/28/89)
In article <3837.251eb4d9@uwovax.uwo.ca> J G Miller <a4346@uwocc1.uwo.CA> writes:
$Is not the group can.francais more appropriate for these postings,
$after all this is not can.politique?
Hmm ... this is can.general; no language is implied in the group name, and
we are after all an officially bilingual country. I personally support
the idea of posting articles to this group in whatever language the poster
wishes to use. It seems to me that can.francais is more likely for issues
relating to french-speaking Canadians, rather than for articles on any
Canadian topic which just happen to be written in French.
C'est seulement mon opinion, sans doute.
$//Greg Miller
--
Stephen M. Dunn cs4g6ag@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca
**********************************************************************
<std_disclaimer.h> = "\nI'm only an undergraduate!!!\n";
"VM is like an orgasm: the less you have to fake, the better." - S.C.fortin@zap.UUCP (Denis Fortin) (09/28/89)
In article <22345@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: >In fact, since nobody who doesn't read English would be reading this group, >one can only assume that posting en Francais is done to make a point. Maybe, then again maybe not. It is possible to be able to read & understand a language, but not feel comfortable enough about writing it to want to take a chance to have your ideas misinterpreted. (For example, I've noticed that a number of people respond in English to postings in French adding a note to the effect that they can understand what is written, but they are not conversant enough with French to reply in the original poster's language... That's sounds fine to me.) >Canada has two official languages, but if somebody came to you and asked >directions in English, to respond in French (when you know English) would >be rude. True.... to a certain extent. This is generally the policy that I try to follow (respond to a posting in its original language -- which is why I'm posting this in English), but then again it is conceivable that some people might feel more comfortable writing in their mother tongue even when they respond to a posting in some other language. The only risk that they expose themselves to is that the original poster might not be able to read the response -- but then again, there's nothing so terrible about that (I'd object if somebody was using a foreign language to insult or attack somebody who could not respond, but in all other cases, it would most probably not matter). Actually, I have had conversations with people where I spoke French and they spoke English, and it ended up working pretty well (I'll admit it's fairly rare, but it's happened to me on a few occasions). -- Denis Fortin, | fortin@zap.uucp CAE Electronics Ltd | uunet!philmtl!zap!fortin The opinions expressed above are my own. | fortin%zap@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
fortin@zap.UUCP (Denis Fortin) (09/28/89)
In article <310@van-bc.UUCP> sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) writes: >Anyone out there know how I can configure rn to automatically skip articles >with french in them :-) Well, you can partly solve the problem by putting the name "Tremblay" in your rn filter (kill file). ;-) ;-) -- Denis Fortin, | fortin@zap.uucp CAE Electronics Ltd | uunet!philmtl!zap!fortin The opinions expressed above are my own. | fortin%zap@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) (09/29/89)
But you do take a risk that the person you're replying to won't understand, or understand fully. You responded to a posting of mine in French. I read the reply, and understood most of it, but did not feel confident enough to reply in either language. After all, I saw inconsistencies in your posting, but where they errors in your logic, or errors in my French? Not having the energy to go home and get my Anglais-French dictionary, I didn't reply. Unfortunately, if I did make an error, people would assume it was my brain that was at fault, not my French... So maybe it's a good way to shut people up... :-) -- Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
derome@cs.toronto.edu (Philippe Derome) (09/29/89)
In article <29431@watmath.waterloo.edu> sccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu (S. Crispin Cowan) writes: >In article <1989Sep26.153200.959@utstat.uucp> webber@utubrutus.toronto.edu (Bob Webber) writes: >>In article <3837.251eb4d9@uwovax.uwo.ca> J G Miller <a4346@uwocc1.uwo.CA> writes: >>Pourquoi pas? Consider it a challenge (no, better, an _opportunity_) to >>learn something about Canada's other official language and other imperialist >>running dog founding culture. Or a chance to make new friends by politely >>asking for a translation if your language skills aren't up to par. > >This is one of the issues that I consider to be a major problem. >Among anyone but civil servants, 'par' in French is about zip. I like >it that way. You seem to have forgotten the francophone populations who also speak some French. I have to admit that is some parts of the country, their number is rather small. >I don't do any significant business with anyone in >Quebec. I don't know anyone i Quebec. >No significant amount of work >in my field (computer architecture) is published in French. Same here. >Therefore, I am completely un-interested in investing the man YEARS >required to acquire the language to any degree of utility. > >On the other hand, it is becoming a standard requirement that any >medium to high level civil servant be bi-lingual. Since bi-lingualism >is almost completely non-existant outside of Quebec, this creates a >tremendous bias towards people from Quebec. There are about 7-800 000 francophones outside Quebec, for the most part in Ontario and New-Brunswick. That's probably nearly as much as anglophones in Quebec. There are a fair number of English Canadians who are becoming bilingual in Ontario. I agree that the percentage of bilingual people outside Quebec is rather weak, but put together it comes to appreciable numbers. >In a predominantly English country, I regard this as un-fair discrimination. This is not discrimination since the bilingual requirement can be satisfied by any person who has been willing to spend enough time learning the other (2 others) language. Of course for you, bilinguism is not a qualification for being a public servant! >It is also >divicive. People tend not to like the federal government now. How >will western Canada feel about it when every time they talk to a >federal civil servant the first thing they hear is 'Bonjoure', >followed by broken english. It's not fun feeling like an immigrant in >your native country. If the policy were tough enough (I am not judging it), those bilingual officers should be fluent in both languages so that it should not disturb you. The evidence suggests the contrary of your statement: bilingual francophones in public service are more fluent in either language than their counterpart. This has been recently demonstrated by a figure showing how many bilingual officers failed their bilingual test so that they could get a bonus for that special qualification. Among the ``bilingual'' anglophones, a much larger percentage failed than among the ``bilingual'' francophones. The interpretation I see from this is as follows: possibly when the anglophones were hired they met their bilingual qualification by a much tighter margin than the francophones; or they used the second language at work much less frequently than the other group. So, in fact, it's the francophones who would probably more often be served by a not quite linguistically competent public servant than the anglophones. My personal experience suggests this state of affairs as well. > >Crispin >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Login name: sccowan In real life: S. Crispin Cowan >Office: DC3548 x3934 Home phone: 570-2517 >Post Awful: 60 Overlea Drive, Kitchener, N2M 1T1 >UUCP: watmath!watmsg!sccowan >Domain: sccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu > >"Everything to excess. Moderation is for monks." > -Lazarus Long >>-- >>Bob Webber, Office of the Dean of Arts and Science, University of Toronto >>Internet: webber@artsci.toronto.edu; webber@utstat.toronto.edu >>UUCP: utzoo!utas!webber; utzoo!utstat!webber Philippe Derome derome@neat.cs.toronto.edu
tom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu (Tom Haapanen) (09/29/89)
Stephen M. Dunn <cs4g6ag@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> writes: > > Hmm ... this is can.general; no language is implied in the group name, and > we are after all an officially bilingual country. I personally support > the idea of posting articles to this group in whatever language the poster > wishes to use. Toivottavasti voimme sitten keskustella Kanadan suomalaisen vahemmiston asemasta Quebecissa ranskankielisen enemmiston voimaanasettaman kielilain voimaantulon jalkeen. Kaikki suomea high schoolissa ja/tai yliopistossa opiskelleet osaavat varmasti itse kaantaa taman englanniksi, vaikka tama onkin kirjoitettu kanadalaisella nappaimistolla. Tietysti tama on vain minun mielipiteeni ... \tom haapanen "now, you didn't really expect tom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu my views to have anything to do watmims research group with my employer's, did you?" university of waterloo Number of scientific citations linking smoking to health risks, according to the Canadian Medical Association: 7,818 Number of cause-and-effect studies linking smoking to health risks, according to Canadian tobacco manufacturers: 0 -Report on Business Magazine, Oct/89
evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) (09/29/89)
In article <22345@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: >Canada has two official languages, but if somebody came to you and asked >directions in English, to respond in French (when you know English) would >be rude. That's not to say it hasn't happened. When I lived in Montreal, being treated that way by bus drivers, directory assistance and government offices was the exception rather than the rule. In more recent trips that hasn't happened, ususally because I now ask in French (1/2 :-). But the memories are certainly vivid, and the technique was sometimes applied to tourists who didn't know better. I have come across a number of Americans who won't vacation in Quebec anymore for this reason. In this context, the actions were not only rude, but damaging to both Quebec's reputation for hospitality and its economy. -- Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software, Brampton, Ontario - evan@telly.on.ca She was looking for a vacation, and he was the last resort.
mikeb@coho.ee.ubc.ca (Mike Bolotski) (09/30/89)
In article <3301@watale.waterloo.edu> tom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu (Tom Haapanen) writes: >Toivottavasti voimme sitten keskustella Kanadan suomalaisen vahemmiston >voimaantulon jalkeen. Kaikki suomea high schoolissa ja/tai yliopistossa >opiskelleet osaavat varmasti itse kaantaa taman englanniksi, vaikka tama >onkin kirjoitettu kanadalaisella nappaimistolla. Finnish is not offered in most Canadian high schools. At least not in B.C. >Tietysti tama on vain minun mielipiteeni ... Mine too. Mike Bolotski, Department of Electrical Engineering, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada mikeb@ee.ubc.ca | mikeb%ee.ubc.ca@relay.ubc.ca ee.ubc.ca!mikeb@uunet.uu.net | uunet!ubc-cs!ee.ubc.ca!mikeb
tom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu (Tom Haapanen) (09/30/89)
Mike Bolotski <mikeb@coho.ee.ubc.ca> writes: > Tom Haapanen <tom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu> writes: > >Toivottavasti voimme sitten keskustella Kanadan suomalaisen vahemmiston > >voimaantulon jalkeen. Kaikki suomea high schoolissa ja/tai yliopistossa > >opiskelleet ... > > Finnish is not offered in most Canadian high schools. At least not in B.C. It's true that Finnish is not offered in most Canadian high schools, and French is. However, the point I was attempting to make was that posting in French excludes a large portion of the can.general audience. I did take French for four years, but do not feel competent enough to rebut a French posting. Further, I think a posting originally in French is OK, but I think it is inconsiderate to take an English thread and turn that into French, thereby excluding some of the people already taking part in the discussion. \tom haapanen "now, you didn't really expect tom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu my views to have anything to do watmims research group with my employer's, did you?" university of waterloo "I don't even know what street Canada is on" -- Al Capone
dennis@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Dennis Ferguson) (10/01/89)
I have been following the traffic on language in Quebec, and French in recent newsgroup postings, and thought I might contribute something which, while not quite to the point, might help explain why I have some sympathy for the position of the Quebec government and Francophones in Quebec. My home town is Sudbury, in northeastern Ontario. I suspect the majority of people in Ontario whose mother tongue is French live in this part of the province and I'm pretty sure at least half of the population in Sudbury when I lived there was French. You could never have told this by looking at the place in the 60's and early 70's, however. Or even by living in it. All signs were in English. Many streets had French names, but these were universally pronounced with an English twang. If you went shopping you did it in English. If you wanted a phone number from Bell information you asked in English. Your hydro bills, and tax bills, and whatever else, all were written in English. The Catholic school board was large, and perhaps half of their primary schools (a third of the total) were French. The public school board ran no French language primary schools. Since the Ontario government didn't fund the Catholic board beyond the primary school level, there were only two French language high schools out of perhaps a dozen and a half, neither of which were run by the public school board and hence had to charge quite steep tuition. If you wanted to go to high school in Sudbury you pretty much had to speak English, and indeed had to speak it as well as those whose mother tongue was English since there were no special considerations given. I don't think it is any easier for a French-speaking person to learn English as a second language than it is for an English-speaking person to learn French, so the recent postings may give you some idea of what some of those guys were up against. To do as well as an English-speaking person, a French person would have to work a whole lot harder. This is in a city where the majority was likely French. I liked French, and could usually keep up with and contribute to a conversation about last Friday's football game, or girls, or whatever people talked about. I couldn't have written (or spoken) a completely grammatically correct sentence if my life depended on it, but then again neither could a lot of those guys. In either language. It was kind of hard to get a proper, consistant education if you were French. Even at the time I could remember being conscious enough of the problem to wonder how the heck some of the old guys who lived out in the valley and maybe didn't speak a lot of English got along. How could they go to court to fight a speeding ticket, or dispute their water bill, or obtain government services, or even get a phone number that wasn't in the book? I don't think this was particularly just, yet a French person who made any noises about "rights" was likely ignored. Speak English, we don't understand you and aren't going to make an effort to try. The English in Montreal had it very, very good in comparison to the French in Sudbury. Sudbury has changed a lot since. The place looks bilingual. You can count on getting service in French if you want it, both from the government and, usually, from private business. English parents fight to get their kids into French immersion schools. There are publicly supported French language secondary schools, the number of which probably matches the linguistic distribution of the population there more reasonably. Sudbury has become more like Montreal. I guess during the same period Montreal has become more like Sudbury was. With great cries about the violation of the "rights" of the English, and the racism of the French. If the French in Quebec are Nazis I can't imagine what we were in Sudbury 20 years ago. Of course I don't believe that one corrects an injustice with another injustice, but this is not an ideal world and in the real world one often reaps what one sows. And I can't help but feel that maybe the English in Quebec are now harvesting what was planted by the English outside (and inside) Quebec 20 or 30 or more years ago. As a consequence of this I am happy to see postings in French and will make the effort to read them if I am interested in the contents, no matter how inconvenient this might be to me. Learning two languages is always more inconvenient then learning one, more time consuming. Reading, or writing, or saying something in your second language is always more inconvenient than your first language. Why, then, should people whose first language is French be asked to suffer more inconvenience than I am willing to bear myself? You can ask them to do this, and you might have all sorts of good, logical reasons why they should, but I wouldn't expect this to make a big impression. What goes around comes around. Dennis Ferguson University of Toronto
fortin@zap.UUCP (Denis Fortin) (10/01/89)
In article <1989Sep29.130503.13587@telly.on.ca> evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes: >In article <22345@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: >>[...] if somebody came to you and asked directions in English, to respond >>in French (when you know English) would be rude. > >That's not to say it hasn't happened. When I lived in Montreal, being >treated that way by bus drivers, directory assistance and government >offices was the exception rather than the rule. >[...] >In this context, the actions were not only rude, but damaging to >both Quebec's reputation for hospitality and its economy. Sigh... I guess the cat is out of the bag and I must now make a confession (even though it might get me in trouble with Quebec Nationalists :-) "Yes, it's true, there are morons in Quebec too!" "Oui, c'est bel et bien vrai, me^me au Que'bec il y a des e'pais!" ;-) I guess what I'm trying to say is that not all Quebecois act the same way. I'm sure you could think of at least a few (potentially even a great many) of your fellow ontarians that act in a way that you do not approve of... ;-) -- Denis Fortin, | fortin@zap.uucp CAE Electronics Ltd | uunet!philmtl!zap!fortin The opinions expressed above are my own. | fortin%zap@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
alonzo@microsoft.UUCP (Alonzo Gariepy) (10/02/89)
I think this meta-discussion is getting a little silly. Communication is voluntary. People choose what they say and to whom they say it. That includes the subject, medium, language, and destination. When you see someone (in this case a man) post a message in French, you can assume one or more of the following: * He speaks only French. * The message requires a degree of precision only achievable in his native tongue. * He knows there are some French speakers who will read his message. * His question is specific to French speakers. * He is in France and doesn't know how to limit distribution. * He prefers to discuss certain subjects with speakers of French. * He is perfectly bilingual, but feels that using a language only partially understood by his audience confers some tactical advantage. * It was easier for him. I support anyone's right to use this public network. If I could eliminate a category of messages from the net, it wouldn't be on the basis of language. So let us get back to how the rest of Canada is helping to obliterate the few remaining dregs of culture in Quebec. Alonzo Gariepy alonzo@microsoft
ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Raymond Dunn) (10/03/89)
>In article <22345@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: >Canada has two official languages, but if somebody came to you and asked >directions in English, to respond in French (when you know English) would >be rude. In article <1989Sep29.130503.13587@telly.on.ca> evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes: >In more recent trips that hasn't happened, ususally because I now ask in >French (1/2 :-). But the memories are certainly vivid, and the technique >was sometimes applied to tourists who didn't know better. I have come >across a number of Americans who won't vacation in Quebec anymore for this >reason. > >In this context, the actions were not only rude, but damaging to >both Quebec's reputation for hospitality and its economy. The usual anglophone assumption that this is being done to make some sort of cultural point rather than because the French speaker does not have the facilities in English to answer, even though the question is understood, is ridiculous. Yes, there have been occasions..., but for goodness sake, the majority of Quebecois are unilingually French! Should one expect to be answered in English in France? No? Then why do so in Quebec? I'm not quite sure whether to laugh or cry at the continued whining of unilingual English speakers that the French wont speak to them in English. This is hypocritical nonsense, and narrowmindedness of the worst kind. BTW I *am* unilingual English, with not *nearly* enough French to exist completely in that langauge (and regularly answer French questions in English)! -- Ray Dunn. | UUCP: ray@philmt.philips.ca Philips Electronics Ltd. | ..!{uunet|philapd|philabs}!philmtl!ray 600 Dr Frederik Philips Blvd | TEL : (514) 744-8200 Ext : 2347 (Phonemail) St Laurent. Quebec. H4M 2S9 | FAX : (514) 744-6455 TLX : 05-824090