pector@ihuxw.UUCP (Scott W. Pector) (12/27/83)
Once in a while I get in the mood for the classics; so for the last couple of months, I read some plays by Aristophanes, Euripides, and Sophocles, and the satires and epistles of Horace and Persius. The edition of Aristophanes that I read was a paperback edition (from Signet or Bantam) that had all his surviving plays (10). The plays were good; they are supposedly the only remaining examples of what is called the Old Comedy. They attack abuses in Athenian society and politics. In fact, they remind me of the kind of spoofs (except more drawn out) that one sees at the Second City revues in Chicago (I suspect similar things are done by its sister troop in Toronto when they aren't on TV). The material was satisfactory, but at times it bordered on the ludicrous. I guess the marvel of it consists of 1) one wouldn't expect this type of bantering and encouragement of reform to be presented to the public at that time (in Athens during the Peloponnesian War: these plays indicate the almost complete freedom of speech allowed to writers, even if they attacked the government or its leaders personally); and 2) the type of humor prevalent in the plays. The edition of Euripides that I read was a paperback edition (from Signet or Bantam) that had 10 of his plays. I found the plays very entertaining. In fact, it was hard to put the book down when in the middle of a play. I par- ticularly liked "Electra," "Trojan Women," and the plays containing Orestes and/or Iphigenia. Orestes is a very interesting character to study, for in different plays, Euripides views him differently. Also, Euripides is reported to have been the first Greek playwright to have given his characters traits from everyday people rather than those of idealized heroes. The edition of Sophocles that I read (from Oxford U. Press) had only 3 of his plays. Although his characters are more idealized than those of Euripides, his study of their interactions with each other is quite fascinating. I particularly enjoyed the play about Electra and her interactions with her mother Clytemnestra, and her younger sister, shortly before Orestes returns to avenge the murder of his father Agamemnon. Another good play involved the interactions between Odysseus, Achilles' son, and Hercules' friend (who was given the hero's arrows and quiver which never failed). Finally, I was rather unimpressed by the Penguin's Classics edition of the satires of Horace and Persius. I found the works of both of these poets rather lackluster. About the only things of interest that I found are their comments on their contemporaries and their attacks on their societies. But even these were at times very boring, although that may have been due to a poor translation. Scott Pector
chip@dartvax.UUCP (Brig ) (12/30/83)
I'd like to cast a vote for the histories. They are, in general, less "objective" (dry) than our current histories, and full of fascinating odds and ends. By far the best is Herodotus, who travelled all over the world picking up local tales and customs--which were then organized into an account of how the Greeks ganged up to beat the Persians, who at that point ruled "the rest of the world". Herodotus takes all his stories with a grain of salt, but unlikely as they are, he passes them on. Thucydides is also good. Plutarch's Lives were a bit too long and too occupied with obscure folks for me--but an interesting browse. I hope to read Sallust and Pliny in the next year or two... But I think everyone ought to try out Herodotus.
pector@ihuxw.UUCP (Scott W. Pector) (01/04/84)
I agree. Herodotus is great! His frustration with his sources is evident (always apologizing for them), but the stories that are told seem like source material for Monty Python! The history of the world to 450 B.C. is the topic and he does a great job. Lots of exaggeration when it comes to the Greeks. (Incidentally, a great response to Herodotus is made by Gore Vidal in his book "Creation." Quite enjoyable.) I also agree on Thucydides' history of the Peloponnesian Wars. Thucydides was a realist and got tired of all that business about the zillion gods involved. Another good history is Arrian's "Life of Alexander." Unfortun- ately it was written 200 years after Alexander the Great's death and is subject to lionization and deification of its subject, but it is still pretty good. Xenophon's account of an attempt by a group of Greek mercenaries to put a Persian prince in power in the Persian Empire (ca. 399 B.C.), its failure, and their escape back to Greece is also interesting. Xenophon is a real egotist. I'm going to read some stuff by Julius Caesar on the Roman Civil War and his conquests of Gaul and Britain later this year. Hope it's good. Scott Pector
crp@stcvax.UUCP (Charlie Price) (01/04/84)
I, too, found Herodotus very worthwile.
Interestingly enough, I have reason to believe that Herodotus
might be particularly good reading for computer types.
His discursive style is very "stack oriented".
He will be in the middle of some story and mention something or
someone that "reminds him" of an entirely different topic related
to that thing or person and he will go off entirely from the present
topic to talk about whatever he was reminded of.
As far as I could tell, he never got more than two levels deep
(one original topic plus two levels of excursion) and he always got
back to the previous discussion.
This drove most of the people in the class crazy.
Perhaps it is only my own style that finds a match here
(which reminds me of a story ...) or perhaps it really is just a context
stack --- and we should all be able to deal with stacked contexts.
--
Charlie Price - Storage Technology (disk division) - Louisville, CO
{ allegra, amd70, ucbvax }!nbires!stcvax!crp
{ seismo, brl-bmd, menlo70 }!hao!stcvax!crpahearn@parsec.UUCP (01/04/84)
#R:ihuxw:-63300:parsec:46400001:000:1114
parsec!ahearn Jan 3 13:03:00 1984
In reply to Scott Pector's comments on the classics, I am
compelled to advertise the merits of Aeschylus and Catullus.
Aeschylus' *Agamemnon*, in particular, is very good. The play
is concerned with the events leading to the death of Agamemnon
at the hands of his wife, Clytemnestra.
Catullus is my favorite classical poet. He lived at the time of
Julius Caesar and wrote very well in many different forms (he was
among the first of the Roman poets to use Greek forms, like
the Sapphic). Catullus is witty, keenly aware, and bawdy. In fact,
if you are easily offended, stay away from Catullus. He writes
frequently about sex, and was one of the lovers of one of the more
famous, uh, society women of his time.
With all translations, the erudition and integrity of the translator
is crucial. Do a little research before you buy the book.
Two translations I have recently read which I can recommend very highly
are Mary Bernard's *The Poems of Sappho* (well, Sappho and Catullus
are my favorite classical poets) and John Ciardi's masterwork, Dante's
*Divine Comedy*.
Enjoy!
Joe Ahearn
allegra!convex
pector@ihuxw.UUCP (Scott W. Pector) (01/05/84)
And I suppose that when Herodotus was talking about conquered peoples and momentarily changed the topic, one could say: HE GOT OFF THE BEATEN TRACK!!!! (heh-heh) Scott Pector
shebs@utah-cs.UUCP (Stanley Shebs) (01/05/84)
As additional reading, I'd like to suggest Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire - the unabridged version. It covers the period from the Antonines to the fall of Constantinople, and is absolutely fascinating. Gibbon has done us the service of wading through the works of many obscure historians, most of whose works have never been translated. His style is quite readable, and he doesn't refrain from making editorial comments at appropriate places. The footnotes are intriguing, although many are in Latin or Greek! The days are past when educated people were familiar with those languages... Among other things, there are the eyewitness accounts of Attila and other famous barbarians, the lives of the great generals who fought them, accounts of *all* the emperors including the ones that reigned for only months or weeks, and details of the infighting between the early Christian sects (the one between the Homoousians and the Homoiousians was particularly bitter, and led to the Arian heresy - all from the difference of a single letter!). Gibbon himself is very "philosophic", and treats the religious controversies with impartiality and not a little wit. I personally am about 2/3 through - reading it is definitely a project! But it *is* satisfying my curiosity about what actually happened during those "Dark Ages"... stan the l.h. utah-cs!shebs
tbray@mprvaxa (01/05/84)
x <-- USENET insecticide These Classical Greek works are not only first-class literature, they are good stage drama and should be presented more often. I have participated in productions of Oedipus the King, Sophocles' Orestes, and Lysistrata. Any stage company that can't draw tears and anguish with Oedipus the King, or have 'em rolling in the aisles with just about anything from Aristophanes is suffering from incompetence. Not surprisingly, in my experience these work best when presented in a traditional fashion - masked chorus and historically accurate dress (In fact, some of the disgustingly obscene sight gags in Aristophanes require that the male members of the cast wear robes or skirts). Even a thrust-stage amphitheatre rather than a proscenium seems to help. I have attended the Epidaurus festival in Greece and seen the productions in their original settings. The visual values were superb, but it woulda been better if I'd known the language. Tim Bray ...decvax!microsoft!ubc-vision!mprvaxa!tbray
pector@ihuxw.UUCP (Scott W. Pector) (01/05/84)
I second Joe's comments about Ciardi's translation of the "Divine Comedy." I read it last spring and found it quite enjoyable. The translator DOES make a difference. Scott Pector