robison@eosp1.UUCP (Tobias D. Robison) (04/26/84)
References: It's worth thinking VERY hard to try to understand what made nazism possible. Trying to blame it on Christianity would require a lot of supportive evidence. I think the charge is unthought-out, and unfair. Many of the best writers of twentieth century have been wrestling with the rise of nazism. They go into a lot more depth than a short note to net.flame. I would recommend reading several works by each of the following writers (doubtless other authors will be suggested as well): - Heimito von Doderer - Heinrich Boll - Gunter Grass Boll and Grass are German, Doderer is Austrian. Many of their works are available in goos English translations. All are writers of fiction. In addition, I would highly recommend the early films of Jean Renoir, particularly the one (its name escapes me) about escape from prison in WWI, a legitimate candidate for best film of all time. All of Europe was strongly affected by the fall of its aristocracy in WW I. Europe went through a period (say, 1880 through 1930) where there were extraordinary differences between subsequent generations, and unusual failures in leadership as a result. The loss of youth in WW I was also devastating for many European countries. I received my best impression of the gulf between geenrations just preceding WW I, from Doderer's "Waterfalls of Slunj". For fictional studies of the effects in England, read works by these authors (most of whch are hilarious as well as revealing): E. Waugh, Anthony Powell, Henry Green. One of the most interesting coincidences that has been pointed out is that the countries most susceptible to facism (Italy and Germany) had the shortest history of democratic institutions. Whereas France and England, for example, developed the main institutions and governmental structures to support large democratic states in the late Middle ages and Renaissance, Italy and Germany retained early feudal tiny-state structures much longer. If there is a causal relationship here, it may be that solid democratic institutions take hundreds of years to develop. On this subject I would recommend some of the non-fictional historic studies of the late middle age by J.R. Strayer. The Germans who brought about WW II were an extraordinarily peculiar lot. I don't think people sufficiently appreciate the following contrast -- there have been many times when one group set out to kill every last member of another group. In recent times we have witnessed attempted genocide in Africa and Asia on a very large scale. But the Germans were peculiarly thorough and crazy about their attempt. What other genociders were willing to divert resources from a war they could possiby win to commit more effective genocide? Other examples of their crazy efficiency and ineficiencies are too numerous and too painful too mention. I do not wish to fuel the flames of another discussion on nazism in this group. My message is that those of you who wish to know, or to judge more clearly should look to reference materials to deepen your point of view. If you wish to understand these puzzles better you must immerse yourself in the cultures (believe me, they were different from ours today) of the countries in Europe that acted out the tragedies of nazism. Even then, you may get no further than the millions who were right there when it happened and will never understand. - Toby Robison (not Robinson!) allegra!eosp1!robison decvax!ittvax!eosp1!robison princeton!eosp1!robison
citrin@ucbvax.UUCP (Wayne Citrin) (04/27/84)
> In addition, I would highly recommend the early films of Jean Renoir, > particularly the one (its name escapes me) about escape from prison in WWI, > a legitimate candidate for best film of all time. That film is "Grand Illusion." I believe the film was released in 1938 or 1939, just before the outbreak of WWII. Wayne Citrin (ucbvax!citrin)
tac@teldata.UUCP (04/30/84)
, (sop to the blank line eaters--consider it a religious sacrifice)
A recent article by the author below (article too long to include)
listed several references for discovery of the causes of the rise in
the Nazi party in Europe, and post WWI problems.
- Toby Robison
allegra!eosp1!robison
decvax!ittvax!eosp1!robison
princeton!eosp1!robison
I would also like to suggest a book on another topic which might open
a new aspect of the cultural differences. The book is "Languages of
Pao" by Jack Vance, and is science fiction but a well thought out comment
on the differences that arise in a culture from the language structure.
Consider the differences in three people who are ostensibly the same but
who's language treats "chopping wood" in these ways:
1) Rending the wood by proper manipulation of superior force and leverage.
2) Seperation of the wood from itself by cunning use of pressure.
3) Proper application of good tools to create more usefull wood.
The contention which I wish to further here is that the first will be (or
tend to be) more militaristic, the second will tend to be more manipulative
(i.e. a business man or politician), while the third will tend to be a
craftsman or artisan.
Now if you do not disagree too much with this premise, study the languages
of the major countries of Europe, or the whole world! Look at the content
of the languages as well as the structure.
From the Soapbox of
Tom Condon {...!uw-beaver!teltone!teldata!tac}
A Radical A Day Keeps The Government At Bay.