red@ukma.UUCP (Red Varth) (01/25/85)
Well, I'll probably get flamed six ways to Sunday for this, but I think Norman has a good idea in these books. I think he carries it a little bit to extremes. I'm currently about 2/3 of the way through the fifth book of the series. I don't like his writing style at all (too flat). But he still manages to spin a good yarn. He's got some real good ideas -- Counter-Earth, Priest-Kings, Castes, etc. His attitudes towards women are a small, though integral, part of the society he's set up. The same society COULD be set up without this, but I think the books would lose by it. Now, I'm NOT advocating female slavery here. I'm simply stating an opinion. I do think that most women have FANTASIES about being slaves of strong good- looking men. Please note: FANTASIES. I do NOT think that women would enjoy actually BEING slaves. I think I'll stop while I'm ahead (sort of) Red
djw@lanl.ARPA (01/29/85)
> Well, I'll probably get flamed six ways to Sunday for this, > > I do think that most women have FANTASIES about being slaves of strong good- > looking men. Please note: FANTASIES. I do NOT think that women would enjoy > actually BEING slaves. > Actually I think that the men have the fantasies about having the good looking strong female slaves. And therein lies the rub... We have just demonstrated John Norman's market. If you aren't female, I question your motives for your posting. If you are, How good looking is enough? 8-)>
friedman@topaz.ARPA (Gadi Friedman) (01/29/85)
> Well, I'll probably get flamed six ways to Sunday for this, but I > think Norman has a good idea in these books. I think he carries it > a little bit to extremes. > > I'm currently about 2/3 of the way through the fifth book of the series. > I don't like his writing style at all (too flat). But he still manages to > spin a good yarn. He's got some real good ideas -- Counter-Earth, Priest-Kings, Well, I read most of the Gor books, (up to number 13 or so) and I am forced to say that Norman's style gets worse with time. The first 3 books are passable in adventure/sex ratio but later on it gets ridiculus. There are about 3 pages of man/slave conversation to 1 paragraph of story. Some times this anoys me and some times it does not. (Depending on my mood). I must admit there is a potential for a good story in these books but since that is not their intention.... > Castes, etc. His attitudes towards women are a small, though integral, part > of the society he's set up. The same society COULD be set up without this, but > I think the books would lose by it. > > Now, I'm NOT advocating female slavery here. I'm simply stating an opinion. > I do think that most women have FANTASIES about being slaves of strong good- > looking men. Please note: FANTASIES. I do NOT think that women would enjoy > actually BEING slaves. > As to why I read so many of these books, well first I havn't read them for over a year, and second they were close to a subject I wanted to read about. (They didn't come close enough so I quit.) I do not even for a moment feel that women wan't to be Slaves or even have fantasies of being slaves. These books have nothing to do with real women and are not written by or for women. They are written for our male egos and they sometimes do the job. Any one who wants to send me mail is welcome. I LOVE MAIL. -Gadi topaz!friedman
todd@brl-tgr.ARPA (Todd Tuckey ) (01/29/85)
I've read all of the Gor books to date, primarily because I enjoy the stories, the plot lines, and Norman's attention to tiny details which make the setting more realistic. I liked the first five or six the best, while the setting and Norman's treatment of women was still new. But I found that as the series moves on, he says nothing new about his views on the "true" sexual order (i.e. men masters, women slaves). He just keeps restating the same thing in multi-page soliloquies, often using the exact same wording as he did in a previous book. The worst examples of this occur in the books which are written from a (supposedly) women's point of view. I don't share his sexual views, but I do find them interesting reading. Norman's idea that women are natural slaves is a bunch of crap. I think both sexes have fantasies along those lines, but neither would like to see female slavery implemented on a global scale. Todd Tuckey
ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) (01/29/85)
> I do think that most women have FANTASIES about being slaves of strong good- > looking men. Please note: FANTASIES. I do NOT think that women would enjoy > actually BEING slaves. > > I think I'll stop while I'm ahead (sort of) > > Red FYI: *I* don't. I don't know how many women do. I suspect that the number of men who think women have these fantasies is far greater than the number of women who actually do indulge in them. I'd really be interested in other opinions (male and female) on the net. Men: what do you think women fantasize about? Women: what DO you fantasize about? I bet this will get interesting..... Ellen
reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP (01/30/85)
> Castes, etc. His attitudes towards women are a small, though integral, part > of the society he's set up. John Norman's Gor books start almost reasonably, but become absolutely hateful as they go along. The previous posting claimed that Norman's attitude towards women is a "small part" of his world. As the series progresses, it gradually becomes larger and larger. Eventually it becomes the sole reason for the series' continuance. All storytelling is suspended in favor of Norman's domination fantasies. I read the first eight or so Gor books. As I went on, I became more and more uncomfortable and began to hope that at some point Norman would return to reasonableness. He only gets worse. I am somewhat ashamed of myself that I went on reading them for as long as I did. I will never read another one until Norman publishes "The Asshole of Gor", preferably with a cover painting depicting himself in the title role. -- Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher
marko@mako.UUCP (Mark O'Shea) (01/30/85)
In article <871@reed.UUCP> ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) writes: >> I do think that most women have FANTASIES about being slaves of strong good- >> looking men. Please note: FANTASIES. I do NOT think that women would enjoy >> actually BEING slaves. >> >> I think I'll stop while I'm ahead (sort of) >> >> Red > >FYI: *I* don't. I don't know how many women do. I suspect >that the number of men who think women have these fantasies is >far greater than the number of women who actually do indulge >in them. I'd really be interested in other opinions (male and >female) on the net. Men: what do you think women fantasize >about? Women: what DO you fantasize about? > >I bet this will get interesting..... > Ellen A Pox on your head Ellen if you have started another of those tedious discussions in net.books(like the porn discussion). I don't want to pick thru a sea of articles about other peoples fantasies. I want to read about and share info on books. If it starts, nay before it starts, take it elsewhere, PLEASE! Mark
ted@usceast.UUCP (Ted Nolan) (01/31/85)
In article <543@ukma.UUCP> red@ukma.UUCP writes: >Well, I'll probably get flamed six ways to Sunday for this, but I >think Norman has a good idea in these books. I think he carries it >a little bit to extremes. > >I'm currently about 2/3 of the way through the fifth book of the series. >I don't like his writing style at all (too flat). But he still manages to >spin a good yarn. He's got some real good ideas -- Counter-Earth, Priest-Kings, >Castes, etc. His attitudes towards women are a small, though integral, part >of the society he's set up. The same society COULD be set up without this, but >I think the books would lose by it. > >Now, I'm NOT advocating female slavery here. I'm simply stating an opinion. >I do think that most women have FANTASIES about being slaves of strong good- >looking men. Please note: FANTASIES. I do NOT think that women would enjoy >actually BEING slaves. > >I think I'll stop while I'm ahead (sort of) > > Red You haven't really hit it yet. The Gor books were ok at first, fairly competent ERB style adventures. There were some unpleasant undertones (small but integral as you say), but not enough to spoil the adventure. However, starting when Tarl Cabbot seduced the girl at the end of the Wagon Tribes book (can't remember the name) things started to go down hill. When he was made a woman's slave in some marshes some books later, he turned mean and the whole thing just fell apart. By the time Daw picked up the series, you were lucky to get any plot or action inbetween the bizarre philosophic lectures and sex scenes. There is something in me that generally wants to know how a series will come out, no batter how bad it gets, but I just couldn't make myself finish a gor book anymore. If you want good swords & planets adventure, try the Dray Prescott series. (In an early book, Prescott mentions a continent on Kregan called 'gar' that was a home to slavers. I'm still waiting for him to clean it up!) Ted Nolan ..usceast!ted -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted (UUCP) 6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206 allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe) ("Deep space is my dwelling place, the stars my destination") -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
djhawley@wateng.UUCP (David J. Hawley) (01/31/85)
I fantasize about not fantasizing. Reality is so much more exciting than
head-trips. Maranatha!
David John Hawley University of Waterloo
{allegra,clyde,decvax,ihnp4,linus}!watmath!wateng!djhawley
"Something borrowed, but nothing blue, eat the words, spit out the glue"idg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Irwin Greenwald) (02/01/85)
In article <871@reed.UUCP> ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) writes: >in them. I'd really be interested in other opinions (male and >female) on the net. Men: what do you think women fantasize >about? Women: what DO you fantasize about? > >I bet this will get interesting..... > Ellen Can we PLEASE keep *this* discussion out of net.books ??????
slack@wxlvax.UUCP (Tom Slack) (02/01/85)
> > Castes, etc. His attitudes towards women are a small, though integral, part > > of the society he's set up. > > John Norman's Gor books start almost reasonably, but become absolutely > hateful as they go along. The previous posting claimed that Norman's > attitude towards women is a "small part" of his world. As the series > progresses, it gradually becomes larger and larger. Eventually it becomes > the sole reason for the series' continuance. All storytelling is suspended > in favor of Norman's domination fantasies. > > I read the first eight or so Gor books. As I went on, I became more and > more uncomfortable and began to hope that at some point Norman would return > to reasonableness. He only gets worse. I am somewhat ashamed of myself that > I went on reading them for as long as I did. I will never read another one > until Norman publishes "The Asshole of Gor", preferably with a cover painting > depicting himself in the title role. > -- > > Peter Reiher > reiher@ucla-cs.arpa > {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher I agree with Peters appraisal 100% The best Gor books are definately. 1 Tarnsman 2 Outlaw 3 Priest Kings 4 Plainsmen (Wagon Peoples) - I forget the real name. I like the 4th one because it has an interesting description of a society, but it is borderline hate lit. concerning women The rest get worse. I quit reading them at about 8. I was hoping that some time he would return to his original stuff. That was quite good. Tom Slack
zarth@drutx.UUCP (CovartDL) (02/04/85)
I to have read the "Gor" books. I thuroughly enjoyed the first ~7 or so. After that, like has been mentioned he removed himself from the things I liked about the books and started to get to philisophical. He tended to dedicate 50 pages of every book to the same thing, slavery and its place in society. I had to force myself to finish "Slave Girl of Gor" book. I think that was the title it was the second from the last(??). This is too bad because I have the most current one to my knowledge(Players of Gor) which doesn't look half bad. It looks like it could be close to the quality of the first ones but, I find it hard to pick it up because of what his books have been like lately. I would highly recommend the first ~7 or so as entertaining reading after that I can't say as that I would recommend more than a couple. It's really to bad that the had to go downhill so drastically. Zarth Arn
marno@ihuxm.UUCP (Marilyn Ashley) (02/05/85)
> His attitudes towards women are a small, though integral, part > of the society he's set up. The same society COULD be set up without this, but > I think the books would lose by it. > > Now, I'm NOT advocating female slavery here. I'm simply stating an opinion. > I do think that most women have FANTASIES about being slaves of strong good- > looking men. Please note: FANTASIES. I do NOT think that women would enjoy > actually BEING slaves. > > I think I'll stop while I'm ahead (sort of) > > Red Red, I think you're the one having the fantasy. Marilyn
red@ukma.UUCP (Red Varth) (02/06/85)
Well, it ain't Gor, but it is most CERTAINLY John Norman. I refer to "Time Slave". To all those who've flamed me publically and privately, if you think Gor was bad, try this. The plot (or facsimilie thereof) concerns a crazy scientist who sends a female mathematician back to the Stone Age. I think it's the Stone Age, at least. It's right when Cro-magnan was first developing. What the crazy guy does is hire the mathematician (Brenda Hamilton) under the pretext of needed a computer operator/programmer. He essentially kidnaps her (by keeping her out in the African bush and returning all her mail). Then he and his fellow crazies put her through essentially a mind-conditioning routine -- "Do this, or I'll beat you bloody because I'm a male and you have to obey me." Ad infinitum. What they think they're doing is outfitting her for survival in the Stone Age. I would rather have a course in tracking game or archery or general survival. Among other things, her "training" includes: Having to kneel in the presence of any male. Wearing whatever clothing a male sees fit to give her Wearing cosmetics (which she didn't) Obeying any male immediately. Then they dump her in the middle of a forest buck-naked and expect her to survive. She does, but I think she's damned lucky. She eventually gets captured by a cave-man and immediately raped repeatedly. Sigh. At least Norman doesn't have her ENJOY it. I don't want to give away the remainder of the story; it gives a reasonably accurate guess as to what life was like back then. That part of it is pretty good. Red
barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) (02/07/85)
Since the subject of John Norman's "Gor" books has arisen again,
I'm reposting some information I gleaned from a radio interview with
Don Wollheim, Norman's publisher, a few years ago.
As to each book being poorer (and more kinky) than the last:
Wollheim stated that, after the first few books, Norman began to insist
that his books no longer be supervised editorially, but published unedited.
Since these books were DAW's biggest sellers, Wollheim felt constrained
to comply.
As to who reads them: Wollheim stated that most of the mail DAW
received on the books was from women, and was favorable.
I'd like to emphasize I'm reporting what Wollheim stated on the
radio, not my personal opinions; the matter of fan mail from women, in
particular, surprises me as much as anyone.
- From the Crow's Nest - Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
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