djb@rayssd.UUCP (Douglas J. Bonn) (10/24/85)
Theses are some questions that might be suitable for discussion on the net. I assume that anyone who tries to answer these have a very good knowledge of "The Hobbit", "The Lord of the Rings" Trilogy (LotR), and "The Silmarillion". There are probably no hard-and-fast answers to these questions, but I am interested in hearing educated speculation. Question #1: Why did the Council of Elrond not seize upon the resistance of the race of dwarves to the Ring? In other words, should not Gimli, Gloin's son, have been chosen as Ringbearer? He could not have been turned into a wraith. That is stated explicitly in the text (forgive me for not quoting the location in LotR). I already know that the "burden" could not be laid upon someone's shoulders, but it seems to me that JRRT overlooked this possibility. What would have happened had Gimli been the Ringbearer? Question #2: I used to ask readers of LotR this trivia question: "Which of the Rings of Power still existed in Middle Earth after the Sailing of the Keepers?" My answer was the chief of the Nine Rings, that of the Witchking of Angmar. Though powerless after the One had been destroyed, I assumed that it had been found on the Pelennor Fields during the clean-up, and preserved as an heirloom in Gondor, or in some museum somewhere. (I always wondered what would have happened if Merry had picked it up during the Battle.) I assumed that each of the Nazgul wore his(/her?) ring since becoming enslaved to it. I assumed wrongly. JRRT makes it clear that (in the Silmarillion, I think, perhaps the Akalabeth) Sauron held all the Nine and the three of the Seven that survived. Fine (I guess--though I liked my way better), but answer me this one JRRT: Why did Sauron not use the Nine (and even the Seven) to enslave more powerful men: why not have an army of Nazguls? Why only Nine? As Frodo and Gollum could have been turned into wraiths by the One Ring, why could the Nine not have multiple "victims"? Question #3: Sauron went to great trouble in the middle of the Third Age to recover all of the Seven that survived. Why? What use were they to him? It didn't seem that he used them at all. [My own answer is this: he didn't want some other character like Radagast or Saruman to come across one. Sure, the DWARVES couldn't use them, but Saruman? Who knows what he could do? Comments? Does this sound reasonable?] Question #4: How did Denethor keep from spilling the proverbial gruel to Sauron via palantir about the Quest of "the witless halfling"? He knew of the Quest and its mission before Faramir was wounded, and he used the palantir while he was wounded. [My answer: He had other things to think about. But it sounds fishy to me.] Question #5: Does anyone know the tales of the other six of the Seven Rings of Power? One can piece together a sketchy history of the Ring of Durin, but what of the others? It says that four of the Seven were consumed by dragon flames. [Besides Smaug and Scatha, no dragons are mentioned in the Third Age, aside from a stray comment in the Tale of Years (Appendix B of "Return of the King") that "dragons begin multiplying again" or something like that.] Question #7: Does the Mythopoeic Society still exist? Does anyone know its present address? I have the old one, which was: Mythopoeic Society PO Box 4671 Whittier, CA 213-384-9420 If anyone knows if this is still correct, please mail or post. This is a group that studies the lore in the books of JRR Tolkien, CS Lewis and Charles Williams. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Douglas J. Bonn {allegra,linus,raybed2,ccice5,brunix}!rayssd!rayssde!djb | | Raytheon SSD / Box 330 / Portsmouth, RI 02871-9988 / 401-847-8000 x 3991 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ "Its an ill wind that blows nobody any good, and all's well as ends better!" Gaffer Gamgee
chris@umcp-cs.UUCP (Chris Torek) (10/26/85)
> Why did the Council of Elrond not seize upon the resistance of the > race of dwarves to the Ring? ... [Gimli Gloin's son] could not have > been turned into a wraith. Dwarves are not particularly ring-resistant. It is true that they do not fade and become wraiths, but that is the only way in which they differ from Men and Elves in this matter. > What would have happened had Gimli been the Ringbearer? As to that I cannot say, but the end might well have been worse. I myself believe that no one left in Middle-Earth at that time had the power to cast the Ring into the fire, so unless the part played by Smeagol were unchanged, all might have been lost. > Why did Sauron not use the Nine (and even the Seven) to enslave more > powerful men: why not have an army of Nazguls? Why only Nine? I do not know. The best guess that I have heard is that the power held by the Nine could not be increased this way. But the lore-masters know little of conquering and enslaving, and have no wish to find out more: they will not answer upon this point. > Sauron went to great trouble in the middle of the Third Age to recover > all of the Seven that survived. Why? For one thing, he coveted them. But your own answer---that he wanted to be sure none others would rediscover the craft of ruled and ruling rings---sounds to me very much in character with Sauron. As you may recall, the Three were not made by him, nor did he ever touch them: they were indeed under the rule of the One Ring, but in ways the Elven smiths did not understand. With the other rings in hand it might have been possible to discover the connexion, and thence to break it; or as Sauron more likely feared, to create an even greater ring to rule the One. > How did Denethor keep from spilling the proverbial gruel to Sauron via > palantir about the Quest of "the witless halfling"? This at least I can answer easily. At no time did Sauron get any information out of Denethor. The Enemy did indeed mislead Denethor, and eventually break his mind; but the will of Denethor was strong, if brittle: strong enough to keep his own thoughts secret. > Does anyone know the tales of the other six of the Seven Rings of Power? The Dwarves kept these quite secret, and it is only by chance that we know what little we do about them. I shall ask about, but I am afraid there is no more remembered of them than you already know. -- Lindor, alias Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu
gkloker@utai.UUCP (Geoff Loker) (10/30/85)
In article <1182@rayssd.UUCP> djb@rayssd.UUCP (Douglas J. Bonn) writes: >Question #1: >Why did the Council of Elrond not seize upon the resistance of the race of >dwarves to the Ring? In other words, should not Gimli, Gloin's son, have >been chosen as Ringbearer? He could not have been turned into a wraith. > . . . I already know that the "burden" could not be laid upon >someone's shoulders, but it seems to me that JRRT overlooked this possibility. >What would have happened had Gimli been the Ringbearer? "The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others ... nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wealth and an over- mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron." - 'Of the Rings of Power & the Third Age' in 'The Silmarillion' Tolkien states that the Dwarves had a natural desire for gold and the riches of the earth, and that the rings enhanced this vice in them. Although he could not be controlled by the Nazgul or Sauron, Gimli could have been perverted/diverted from his task by the power of the Ring itself. Especially upon finding himself in Moria or in the Caves of Helm's Deep. What Dwarf could resist the temptation to set up a kingdom? Besides, how would the council get the Ring away from Frodo? He wouldn't give it up willingly. >Question #2: > . . . "Which of the Rings of >Power still existed in Middle Earth after the Sailing of the Keepers?" >My answer was the chief of the Nine Rings, that of the Witchking of Angmar. >Though powerless after the One had been destroyed, I assumed that it had >been found on the Pelennor Fields during the clean-up, and preserved as >an heirloom in Gondor, or in some museum somewhere. "Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last." - 'Of the Rings of Power & the Third Age' So the rings were destroyed when the Ring was. The Elven rings weren't because Sauron never had any sort of contact with them or control over them. The others were too closely bound to the One Ring, though, to survive its destruction. > . . . I assumed >that each of the Nazgul wore his(/her?) ring since becoming enslaved to it. >I assumed wrongly. JRRT makes it clear that (in the Silmarillion, I think, >perhaps the Akalabeth) Sauron held all the Nine and the three of the Seven >that survived. The only reference I could find to Sauron collecting and holding the rings was when the rings were first made, and before he passed them out. In fact, JRRT states that Sauron *held* the remaining rings of the Seven and that he *controlled* the Nine. > . . . Why did Sauron not use the Nine (and even the Seven) >to enslave more powerful men: why not have an army of Nazguls? Why only Nine? >As Frodo and Gollum could have been turned into wraiths by the One Ring, >why could the Nine not have multiple "victims"? First, the Seven were for the Dwarves who had proven relatively immune to the rings and, so, probably wouldn't work on Men. Secondly, all evidence I could find pointed to the fact that the Nazgul wore the Nine -- if they didn't, would they still have been wratihs? Finally, Sauron was trying to gather his power together so it could grow, rather than expend it in creating more Nazgul. >Question #3: >Sauron went to great trouble in the middle of the Third Age to recover >all of the Seven that survived. Why? What use were they to him? It didn't >seem that he used them at all. As I said above, Sauron was in a stage of regathering his power. After his defeat at the end of the Second Age, he lost much of his power and it was only after ~3000 years that he had enough to try to stage a power play for control of Middle Earth. The rings, when they were made, had much of his power put into them so that he could control them with the One Ring -- his gathering together of the Seven was an attempt on his part (probably successful, too) to regain some of his former power. >Question #4: >How did Denethor keep from spilling the proverbial gruel to Sauron via >palantir about the Quest of "the witless halfling"? He knew of the Quest and >its mission before Faramir was wounded, and he used the palantir while he >was wounded. "He was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power . . ." - 'Return of the King', Book V, chapter 7 In Appendix A under the section 'The Stewards', Tolkien states that Denethor contested the will of Sauron for many years through the Palantir, and that he eventually came to see the war as a struggle between himself and Sauron. He was, after all, a man descended from Numenorean stock and had a strong mind. It was strong enough to keep Sauron from gaining much/any useful information from him, but it was not strong enough to wrest control of the Stone from Sauron. (However, Aragorn's was.) Comments? -- Geoff Loker Department of Computer Science University of Toronto Toronto, ON M5S 1A4 USENET: {ihnp4 decwrl utzoo uw-beaver}!utcsri!utai!gkloker CSNET: gkloker@toronto ARPANET: gkloker.toronto@csnet-relay
40651275@sdcc13.UUCP (40651275) (11/05/85)
Dwarves, by their nature, are greedy and possesive. If Gimli had born the One Ring, he would probably have either hidden it away, or used it against the Evil with force. Either of these two posibilites were decided against at the white council. As a cross reference, remember how Thorin stubbornly refused to give up the Arkenstone, even though it would have prevented a major portion of a feud and cause of war.
warren@pluto.UUCP (Warren Burstein) (11/07/85)
In article <852@utai.UUCP>, gkloker@utai.UUCP (Geoff Loker) writes: > "Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule > all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly > to it and to last only so long as it too should last." > - 'Of the Rings of Power & the Third Age' > > So the rings were destroyed when the Ring was. The Elven rings weren't > because Sauron never had any sort of contact with them or control over > them. The others were too closely bound to the One Ring, though, to > survive its destruction. I don't think the Nazgul-Lord's ring was destroyed, by the destruction of the One. The quoted passage refers only to the power of the other rings. One the other hand, his body vanished when he was killed, and perhaps so did his ring. > First, the Seven were for the Dwarves who had proven relatively immune to > the rings and, so, probably wouldn't work on Men. Secondly, all evidence > I could find pointed to the fact that the Nazgul wore the Nine -- if they > didn't, would they still have been wratihs? Finally, Sauron was trying > to gather his power together so it could grow, rather than expend it in > creating more Nazgul. They would have remained wraiths without their rings as they had "faded." I think Sauron let them keep the rings or they would have been lacking in power without them, and might have been driven insane if he had taken them away. Anyone read _Lays_of_Beleriand_? I think I'll wait till it gets cheaper. Does it contain any new information, or is it a recasting of what we already know about the First Age.
chris@umcp-cs.UUCP (Chris Torek) (11/08/85)
>> Does anyone know the tales of the other six of the Seven Rings of Power? [me] > The Dwarves kept these quite secret, and it is only by chance that we > know what little we do about them. I shall ask about, but I am afraid > there is no more remembered of them than you already know. Well, I have not found much, but we do indeed know more than nothing about them. They were made by Celebrimbor of Eregion in the Second Age, under the tutelage of Sauron. (Incidentally, all of the Great Rings, except of course the One, were made by him.) All but the Three were found by Sauron in his attack on Eregion after the forging of the One. Alas for Celebrimbor: his heart held against the tortures of the Enemy, and he was cruelly put to death. Sauron seems to have taken the Seven back to Mordor at this time, and given them out somewhat later. This last is but speculation, however. I have another lead, and will report if I find anything else new. [gkloker@utai.UUCP (Geoff Loker)] > Although [Gimli] could not be controlled by the Nazgul or Sauron, Not so! Dwarves `ill endure the domination of others', meaning they are hard to control, not that they cannot be controlled; and the power in the One was very great. Remember also that control may be subtle, and evil may be worked in many ways. > Besides, how would the council get the Ring away from Frodo? He > wouldn't give it up willingly. I think you underestimate Frodo. At the council he was not yet much under the influence of the Ring. He had used it but little, and as they have amply demonstrated, Hobbits too `ill endure' such domination---not, I must admit, as much as Dwarves (in general). > "[The Elven-rings'] power was bound up with [the One Ring], to be > subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last." > - 'Of the Rings of Power & the Third Age' > > So the rings were destroyed when the Ring was. It is uncertain. The contents of Barad-Dur were essentially obliterated in the aftermath of the destruction of the One Ring, so you are in fact correct; but my guess is that the Seven, at least, remained material. > Sauron *held* the remaining rings of the Seven and ... *controlled* > the Nine. Controlled indeed, but they were also in Barad-dur at the time. Or so we believe. > the Seven were for the Dwarves who had proven relatively immune to > the rings and, so, probably wouldn't work on Men. They would have made Men invisible, but you may be correct about the other effects. As those were wholly Sauron's doing, we cannot say. > [if the Nazgul were not wearing the Nine] would they still have > been wraiths? Yes! They were permanently faded. [40651275@sdcc13.UUCP] > Dwarves, by their nature, are greedy and possesive. [sic] That is a very unkind way to put it! You should be glad you are hidden behind an account number, for my Dwarf friends are not at all happy about that. I think you should at least apologise. > As a cross reference, remember how Thorin stubbornly refused to give > up the Arkenstone, even though it would have prevented a major > portion of a feud and cause of war. The Arkenstone was rather a special case. Bilbo knew quite well that he had no right to take it, though his purpose was good. And as a counter-reference, consider Bilbo's mithril-coat. [warren@pluto.UUCP (Warren Burstein)] > I don't think the Nazgul-Lord's ring was destroyed, by the destruction of > the One. The quoted passage refers only to the power of the other rings. True enough. > One the other hand, his body vanished when he was killed, and perhaps > so did his ring. I doubt it. The Nine were tied to Sauron and the One, not to their wearers. > I think Sauron let them keep the rings or they would have been lacking in > power without them, and might have been driven insane if he had taken > them away. Possible, but unlikely. The Nine were so firmly tied to the Nazgul that I think they did not need to be worn. By the way, I do find it odd that the One Ring's power seems to have been related to the inverse square of its distance from Orodruin, while the others' powers were not. A peculiarity of its forging, perhaps. -- Lindor, alias Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu
cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) (11/08/85)
In article <852@utai.UUCP> gkloker@utai.UUCP (Geoff Loker) writes: >"Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule >all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly ^^^^^ >to it and to last only so long as it too should last." > - 'Of the Rings of Power & the Third Age' > >So the rings were destroyed when the Ring was. The Elven rings weren't >because Sauron never had any sort of contact with them or control over >them. The others were too closely bound to the One Ring, though, to >survive its destruction. > The rings would lose their power, surely. But they would not necessarily be destroyed. Their power was bound up in it, not their existence. So it's quite possible they survived, as non-magical objects. -- Andre Guirard The Mad Potato Peel ihnp4!mmm!cipher =/?! it's magic!
chris@umcp-cs.UUCP (Chris Torek) (11/10/85)
My other lead was better, and I have discovered that what I was told was in fact wrong. (When I teased Bregil---he was the one that told me the tale---about his `failing memory', he claimed that he remembered it correctly, and it must have been the fault of another. Ah well, I have learned not to trust so much in half-remembered stories. This at least is from a written record, that I found---not without help---in Elrond's great store. Someone needs to index these on a computer!) All the Great Rings save the One were made by Celebrimbor. The Nine and the Seven were made with the aid of Sauron himself, who was still at that time fair to behold. The Three were made after Sauron had gone off to Numenor (I need a keyboard with accents!). When Sauron made the One, Celebrimbor was aware of it (having been rather suspicious for some time), and so all the rings had been given out or hidden by the time Sauron made his attack on Eregion; but Celebrimbor was captured and tortured, and revealed the locations of the Seven and the Nine. The Three remained hidden, though Galadriel wrote that she thought Sauron guessed who had them. It is said (but *not* written, or at least not in Elrond's copy of that record by Galadriel) that the ring of Durin III was given to him by Celebrimbor himself; this matches what the Dwarves remember, so it is probably the truth. The remainder of the Seven, and most or all of the Nine, were probably given away by Celebrimbor as well, but he never wrote down just where, and no one else that I have asked remembers. -- Lindor, alias Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu
ph@wucec2.UUCP (Paul Hahn) (11/11/85)
In article <2152@umcp-cs.UUCP> chris@umcp-cs.UUCP (Chris Torek) writes: >> "[The Elven-rings'] power was bound up with [the One Ring], to be >> subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last." >> - 'Of the Rings of Power & the Third Age' >> >> So the rings were destroyed when the Ring was. > >It is uncertain. The contents of Barad-Dur were essentially >obliterated in the aftermath of the destruction of the One Ring, >so you are in fact correct; but my guess is that the Seven, at >least, remained material. That is what I believe also. Remember that the Three continued to exist, though they were stripped of their power. They eventually went West with their bearers. Of course, the Three were much less under the influence of the One than the Seven and the Nine, since Sauron never touched them. Nevertheless the passage quoted above says that their only power was bound up with the One. I see no reason not to believe that their substance continued. --pH /* * "Ash nazg thrakatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul, * ash nazg durbatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul!" */
ayers@convexs.UUCP (11/12/85)
>As a cross reference, remember how Thorin stubbornly refused to give >up the Arkenstone, even though it would have prevented a major >portion of a feud and cause of war. It was not the Arkenstone that Thorin refused to give up to prevent a war, it was any part of the dragon-treasure. blues, II
nrh@lzaz.UUCP (N.R.HASLOCK) (11/19/85)
In article <2152@umcp-cs.UUCP>, chris@umcp-cs.UUCP (Chris Torek) writes: > > One the other hand, his body vanished when he was killed, and perhaps > > so did his ring. > > I doubt it. The Nine were tied to Sauron and the One, not to their > wearers. > Remember the magics used by the Nazgul? Do you not think that this ability is tied to the rings and that the Wraiths would have been powerless without their rings? > ... By the way, I do find > it odd that the One Ring's power seems to have been related to the > inverse square of its distance from Orodruin, while the others' > powers were not. A peculiarity of its forging, perhaps. Energy has to come from somewhere and Orodruin is as likely a source as anywhere else. On the other hand, I seem to remember some comment to the effect that the power of the One ring was affected by the inherent power of the land of Mordor. Also remember that Frodo brought the ring to within sight of the Gates without significant side effects, and that this is closer to Orodruin than Minas Ithil which is where Frodo was severely tried for the first time. > Lindor, alias Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) -- -- {ihnp4|vax135|allegra}!lznv!nrh Nigel The Mad Englishman or The Madly Maundering Mumbler in the Wildernesses Everything you have read here is a figment of your imagination. Noone else in the universe currently subscribes to these opinions. "Its the rope, you know. You can't get it, you know."
jlg@lanl.ARPA (11/21/85)
This note is in answer to the four questions about Tolkien's Middle Earth series. All references are directly to material written by Tolkien himself. In the page numbers given for the trilogy 'hard' means the hardbound edition and 'soft' means the paperback. Both are the revised second edition 1965. All other references are to the hardbound editions of the relevant books (although, I don't think there is any difference in the page numbering for the other books). All references are at the end of this note and are numbered. >Question #1: >Why did the Council of Elrond not seize upon the resistance of the race of >Dwarves to the Ring? In other words, should not Gimli, Gloin's son, have >been chosen as Ringbearer? He could not have been turned into a wraith. > . . . I already know that the "burden" could not be laid upon >someone's shoulders, but it seems to me that JRRT overlooked this possibility. >What would have happened had Gimli been the Ringbearer? Gimli was not present at the Council of Elrond, his father Gloin was. Nor was Gimli chosen to be one of the companions of the Ring until the expedition made ready to depart Rivendell - nearly two months after the Council [1]. Elrond wished to send representatives of each kindred, but it is in fact never told what reasons Gimli had for choosing to go. Even so, there are reasons why Gimli (or any Dwarf) would not have been chosen to carry the ring. Some of these have been given already in this discussion. The main one might be that Elves (particularly the Teleri [2]) had very little trust in Dwarves. Consider the reception Gimli got in Lorien [3]. Finally, the ring already had a bearer. Gandalf, at least, had reason to believe that Hobbits would prove resistant [4]. Gollum had possessed the Ring for nearly 500 years (2463-2941 Third age [5]), and had not yet entirely been ruined [6]. Furthermore, Frodo had already proven himself as a bearer [7]. What would have happened if Gimli had been bearer is a matter of pure speculation, especially since it was not ever really considered. >Question #2: > . . . "Which of the Rings of >Power still existed in Middle Earth after the Sailing of the Keepers?" >My answer was the chief of the Nine Rings, that of the Witchking of Angmar. >Though powerless after the One had been destroyed, I assumed that it had >been found on the Pelennor Fields during the clean-up, and preserved as >an heirloom in Gondor, or in some museum somewhere. The nine were in Barad-dur at the time of the War of the Ring. The reference: "At length he [Sauron] resolved that no others would serve him in this case [the quest for the Ring] but his mightiest servants, the Ring-wraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held [8]." This seems pretty clear. The three remaining of the Dwarvish rings are also assumed to have been possessed by Sauron, but no clear justification of this conjecture is given [9]. Sauron certainly held the ring of Durin which he took from Thrain at Dol Guldur [10]. Now if any of the rings survived, they would be deep in the rubble of Barad-Dur. I don't think they survived as they would have been kept in, or near, Sauron's own quarters and Sauron's destruction seems to have been quite violent. I don't think the Palantir of Minas Ithil survived either, for the same reasons. > . . . Why did Sauron not use the Nine (and even the Seven) >to enslave more powerful men: why not have an army of Nazguls? Why only Nine? >As Frodo and Gollum could have been turned into wraiths by the One Ring, >why could the Nine not have multiple "victims"? In the second age, while Sauron held the Ruling Ring, it would not have made sense to deprive the Wraiths of their rings, and therefore much of their power. In the third age, Sauron could not afford to let anyone have the nine rings, lest someone of power should find the Ruling Ring and gain control over a group of Wraiths at the same time. Furthermore, it took quite some time to make Wraiths. The nine were taken from Celebrimbor in 1693 SA (Second Age) but the Wraiths were not seen until about 2251 SA [11]. This is over 500 years, and I would guess that Sauron would have distributed the rings soon after he acquired them. Also, remember, Gollum held the Ruling Ring for nearly 500 years and was not yet a Wraith. >Question #3: >Sauron went to great trouble in the middle of the Third Age to recover >all of the Seven that survived. Why? What use were they to him? It didn't >seem that he used them at all. This is for the same reason given above for holding the nine rings of the Nazgul - any ring that Sauron didn't have was one more ring that MIGHT have been used against him in the coming war. I doubt that Sauron got any use at all out of them for himself since they were designed to be used by Dwarves. >Question #4: >How did Denethor keep from spilling the proverbial gruel to Sauron via >palantir about the Quest of "the witless halfling"? He knew of the Quest and >its mission before Faramir was wounded, and he used the palantir while he >was wounded. "He [Denethor] was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power, he saw nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see [12]." Also: "Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable, and so fell into dispair [13]." From these passages (and other related ones) it is clear that Sauron and Denethor never 'conversed' through the Palantiri, but that Sauron could direct, in some measure, what Denethor was able to view through his stone. In the final contest, Denethor probably saw the black ships sailing up the Anduin, but was misled into believing they were Corsairs. > Well, I have not found much, but we do indeed know more than nothing > about them. They were made by Celebrimbor of Eregion in the Second > Age, under the tutelage of Sauron. (Incidentally, all of the Great > Rings, except of course the One, were made by him.) All but the > Three were found by Sauron in his attack on Eregion after the > forging of the One. Alas for Celebrimbor: his heart held against > the tortures of the Enemy, and he was cruelly put to death. Sauron > seems to have taken the Seven back to Mordor at this time, and > given them out somewhat later. This last is but speculation, > however. I can't find any indication that Celebrimbor made any rings but the three. "In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made the Rings of Power." Also: "Therefore, the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them...." Lastly: "And all those rings that he [Sauron] governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making...[14]." This indicates that Celebrimbor made the Three (at least), and that Sauron had a part (at least) in the making of all the others. This interpretation is nowhere contradicted. As for the histories of the Dwarven rings, they are as uncertain as the origins of the Nazgul. Only the fate of the ring of Durin is told (as above). [1] 'The Fellowship of the Ring', p.361(soft) p.289(hard). [2] 'The Silmarillion', p.233. The Dwarves kill Elu Thingol and steal the Nauglamir (with a Silmaril), thus begins a war between the Elves and Dwarves. The Teleri (of Thingol's kindred) never trust Dwarves again. [3] 'The Fellowship of the Ring', p.445 etc (soft) p.358 etc (hard). And again, Celeborn's statement p.461 (soft) p.371 (hard):"... had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, I would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you." [4] 'The Fellowship of the Ring', p.78(soft) p.58(hard): "I think it likely that some [Hobbits] would resist the Rings far longer than most of the Wise would believe." [5] 'The Return of the King', p.459(soft) p.368(hard). [6] 'The Fellowship of the Ring', p.84(soft) p.62(hard). Gandalf identifies Smeagol/Gollum as a Stoor and discusses his possession of the Ring. [7] 'The Fellowship of the Ring', p.292(soft) p.234(hard): "I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days." [8] 'Unfinished Tales of Middle Earth'; C. Tolkien, Ed.; p.338. [9] 'The Fellowship of the Ring', p.82(soft) p.60(hard). [10] 'The Fellowship of the Ring', p.351(soft) p.282(hard). [11] 'The Return of the King', p.454(soft) p.364(hard). [12] 'The Return of the King', p.161(soft) p.132(hard). [13] 'Unfinished Tales of Middle Earth', p.408. [14] 'The Silmarillion', p.287 etc. J. Giles Los Alamos