cctimar@watrose.UUCP (Cary Timar) (10/26/86)
In article <2177@sdcsvax.UCSD.EDU> rose@sdcsvax.UUCP (Dan Rose) writes: >in such things as translations between languages which have no >distinction between gender and those which do, etc. How do we count English? According to anglophones, English does not distinguish genders, unlike French, German, Spanish, Latin, and all those other languages they teach in school. On the other hand, immigrants whose native languages do not distinguish "he" from "she" (e.g. Hungarian) would probably say that English does have gender distinctions (this is why some say "I met John. She is ...") It is likely that some language has weaker gender distinctions than Hungarian (which distinguishes "he/she" from "it"). Possibly, there are also languages with more complex gender rules (not the same as more genders) than Latin or German. I don't think that gender distinctions are a yes/no characteristic of languages. The question is when and how a language distinguishes gender. -- -- Cary Timar
rob@ptsfb.UUCP (Rob Bernardo) (10/27/86)
In article <8224@watrose.UUCP> cctimar@watrose.UUCP (Cary Timar) writes: >I don't think that gender distinctions are a yes/no characteristic of >languages. The question is when and how a language distinguishes gender. We must keep in mind that "gender" can be used in two different senses. 1. In one sense, gender is a property of the object being referred to. With the exception of referring to ships and boats as "she", this is the only gender English has. "he/him/his" is used for male animate objects, and "she/her/hers" is used for female animate objects. This means that gender is not really a grammatical feature of the language, but only shows up in the *semantics* of third person pronouns (at least only there in English). This is a semantic issue just as much as having separate words for female parent and male parent, or having separate words for people of different ages (baby, child, boy/girl, man/woman). 2. In the other sense, gender is a property of a (noun) *word*, and not *necessarily* reflecting the biological gender of the referent. A great example occurs in Russian, where there is the *grammatically* "feminine" word sobaka meaning "hound" and the *grammatically* "masculine" word pyos meaning "dog". One is called "feminine" because it takes the set of endings that other "feminine" nouns take, and because a adjective that modifies this nound must have the feminine endings. The other is called masculine for the opposite reason. -- Rob Bernardo, San Ramon, CA "Whenever I get the urge to work, (415) 823-2417 I log in and read the netnews {pyramid|ihnp4|dual}!ptsfa!rob until the feeling passes."
rose@sdcsvax.UCSD.EDU (Dan Rose) (10/27/86)
In article <8224@watrose.UUCP> cctimar@watrose.UUCP (Cary Timar) writes: >In article <2177@sdcsvax.UCSD.EDU> rose@sdcsvax.UUCP (Dan Rose) writes: >>in such things as translations between languages which have no >>distinction between gender and those which do, etc. > >How do we count English? According to anglophones, English does not >distinguish genders, unlike French, German, Spanish, Latin, and all >those other languages they teach in school. On the other hand, immigrants >whose native languages do not distinguish "he" from "she" (e.g. Hungarian) >would probably say that English does have gender distinctions (this is why >some say "I met John. She is ...") It is likely that some language has >weaker gender distinctions than Hungarian (which distinguishes "he/she" >from "it"). Possibly, there are also languages with more complex gender >rules (not the same as more genders) than Latin or German. There are lots of issues; I meant to include them all. For example, in French there is no separate word for "siblings" -- you just use the same word as "brothers"; similarly in Spanish for "parents", you use "fathers". [Of course, in context a Spanish speaker wouldn't translate it that way.] Native German speakers I've known insist on calling my female dogs "he," since the word "Hund" (sp?) is masculine. I think Hofstadter mentions some language where there is no distinction between the pronouns "he" and "she" (as if we used "it" in every case), and speculates on whether this would lead to less sexism in writing. I am reminded of a friend who took a Psychology class in which the authors of their text wrote "The subject did such-and-such. Her response was as follows." One student actually complained that the authors were changing gender in mid-sentence -- obviously "the subject" refers to a male. :-) -- Dan (not Broadway Danny) Rose rose@UCSD
debray@megaron.UUCP (11/04/86)
> I think Hofstadter mentions some language where there is no distinction > between the pronouns "he" and "she" (as if we used "it" in every case), > and speculates on whether this would lead to less sexism in writing. I can name several (Asian) Indian languages -- among them Bengali, my mother tongue -- which have only one third person pronoun, roughly equivalent to "it". This may or may not lead to less sexism in *writing*, it certainly doesn't change the fact that these societies are extremely sexist. This makes me feel that the whole "Sexism in Language" debate is pretty meaningless (yes, Sapir-Whorf notwithstanding). --- Saumya Debray University of Arizona, Tucson debray@arizona.edu {allegra, cmcl2, ihnp4}!arizona!debray
ken@hcrvax.UUCP (11/06/86)
In article <1277@megaron.UUCP> debray@megaron.UUCP writes: >I can name several (Asian) Indian languages -- among them Bengali, my >mother tongue -- which have only one third person pronoun, roughly >equivalent to "it". > >This may or may not lead to less sexism in *writing*, it certainly >doesn't change the fact that these societies are extremely sexist. >This makes me feel that the whole "Sexism in Language" debate is >pretty meaningless (yes, Sapir-Whorf notwithstanding). This is the logical equivalent of: "I didn't go swimming in January, and I caught pneumonia anyway. I think that all this nonsense about hypothermia and pneumonia is pretty meaningless." --:) What it boils down to is: "Every little bit counts." (Even the silly things.) As a sort of illustration, consider the term Mrs. In Dryden's day, any lady worthy of respect (through age, social standing, talent) was referred to as Mrs., and Miss was almost a diminutive. See the (dreadful) poem "To the Memory of Mrs. Anne Killigrew, Poetess". Now, the only way to gain this term of respect is to get married. In the same vein, don't try calling a 60 year old German spinster Fraulein. Ken -- - Ken Scott [decvax,ihnp4]!utzoo!hcr!ken For, I said to myself, what is the universe? Big. And what am I? Little. I therefore might as well be at home, where my wife loves me. - Henderson, The Rain King