[net.religion] Biblical Contradictions

simon (03/01/83)

Someone once said, I think it was Carl Sagan, that the extraordinary
thing about von Daniekin's books is the density of logical errors
and misleading information. Well yes--exactly, but what about the bible?
Many people have pointed out chronological peculiarities in the old
testament. There are also cases where one passage contradicts another.
(Compare Lev 20:21 with Deut 25:5, these conflicting statements managed
to inconvenience Henry VIII (then Prince Henry) in his marriage
to Catherine of Aragon.) Then there is the problem of miracles,
the evidence for which cannot said to be scientific. Myths concerning
burning bushes, people walking on water, cataclysmic floods and so on,
until they can be substantiated, are better regarded as products
of a superstitious and ignorant imagination.
Diderot wrote (in language intended to satisfy the censor)
that "Happy the people whose religion asks it to believe only things
true, holy, and sublime, and to imitate only virtuous actions. Such a
religion is ours, in which the philosopher has only to follow his reason
to arrive at the feet of our altars." This brings me to my two requests:
1) I'd like to see examples of favorite religious absurdities
submitted to the net.
2) Is anything left after we strip away all the nonsense from the bible
and, if so, how does it differ from what would be obtained by applying
the same process to the writings of other religions?

donald (03/01/83)

My favorite Biblical contradiction is the two different accounts
of the death of Judas.  In the gospels it is recorded that he gave
the money back to the priests, but then hanged himself.  In the first
part of Acts it is stated that he used the money to buy a field, but
he fell headlong in it and burst apart (macabre!).  I've presented this
contradiction to several Christians of the fundamentalist ilk, but have
never received a satisfactory answer.  They could only manage a weak
apology that Judas hanged himself, but after a while the rope broke
and his body tumbled into the field and burst apart.  Ye gods...

					Don Chan

ljw (03/01/83)

Every once in a while, someone who hasn't done any research on the matter
points out what on the surface appear to be errors or contradictions in the
Bible, yet after 1900+ years no one has come up with any "contradiction"
that doesn't have an answer.

Let's look at the Lev. 20:21 / Deut. 25:5 example:  Lev. 20:21 states,
"If a man takes his brother's wife, it is impurity; he has uncovered his
brother's nakedness, they shall be childless."  Deut. 25:5 states, "If 
brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of
the dead shall not be married outside the family to a stranger; her husband's
brother shall go in to her, and take her as his wife, and perform the duty of
a husband's brother to her."  (both quotes from RSV).  If one studies the
context, one will find that the first case deals with incest or adultery
("takes" would be better translated "rapes"), while the brother is still 
alive.  But when the brother dies, his wife is no longer married (see Rom. 7:2,
I Cor. 7:39, et. al) and is freed to remarry.  No in those days, all possessiwere handed down to the sons.  If there was no sons to get the possessions,
then the brother was to marry his sister-in-law, and raise up a son who would
get to keep the dead brother's possessions, thus keeping the possessions in
the family and not giving it to "strangers."

If anyone is interested, there are several books on the topic of answering
supposed contradictions and errors in the Bible.  In my opinion, the best
(and must reading for anyone thinking about coming up with a "new contra-diction") are those edited by Josh McDowell ("Evidence that demands a Verdict,"
"More Evidence that demands a verdict," "Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics
Ask about the Christian Faith," et. al.).  There are of course other books,
but his are the most researched ones I've seen.

By the way, as long as we are on the subject of "contradictions" and "absurdities", does anyone know of any books that answer point-by-point some of the
"contradictions" in evolution (books similar in style to those mentioned above).
I am specifically interested in why there are so many gaps in the fossil
records among transitional life forms (i.e. half fish, half amphibian, quarter
fish, three-quarter amphibian, etc.).

Since you asked for a list of "absurdities", I'll offer one that is probably
appropriate:
	Prov. 26:4 states that we are NOT to answer fools (lest you be like
him yourself), whereas Prov. 26:5 states that we ARE to answer fools (lest
he be wise in his own eyes).  The reason for this difference is not visible
to the unenlightened, for there are two different Hebrew words translated
fool here.  The "fool" in verse five means someone who doesn't know any
better, and if you would correct them, they would accept the correction and
would increase in knowledge.  This word is often translated "simple (minded)".
The fool in verse four, on the other hand, is a person whose mind is so closed
that even if sound evidence were offered to the contrary, they would not
accept the instruction due to the hardness of their heart (see also Prov.23:9).
An example of this is the refusal of some scientists to visit the place in
Texas where dinosaur tracks and human footprints were found side-by-side to
see if it actually was true.  Their "minds were made up and didn't want to
be confused by the facts."  

I don't want to be a verse four type of fool (which is why I am asking for
more information on evolution's reply to it's "alledged contradictions"
before I offer any criticism on the subject.) and I hope this letter has
helped.
				Larry J. West
			    ...microsoft!trsvax!ljw

P.S.  If you find any "real" contradictions (and I don't mean smokescreens
you developed to justify some sin), mail them to me.  I live only a couple
of miles from the largest seminary in the world (Southwestern Baptist), and
would be delighted to research it for you and help you (and I) come to a
fuller understanding of what the Bible teaches.

nixon (03/02/83)

	1. What are the differences between the Bible and other books?
Consider:
   - fulfilled prophecies
   - the availability of Biblical manuscripts
   - independent historical and archaeological records of Biblical events
   - the testimony of changed lives.
	2. What is the substantiation of miracles recorded in the Bible?
In many cases, miracles are recorded as being witnessed by several people.
These witnesses could be questioned and/or disproved when they
recorded the events.  This written evidence is available in the Bible.
	3. What is the scientific basis for miracles?
It should be admitted that both science and religion have certain axioms
(e.g. whether God is powerful enough to perform miracles).
The question is whether they are reasonable in view of the evidence.
	4. What about Lev. 20:21 and Deut. 25:5?
>From the context, it seems clear that one verse considers the case where 
the husband is alive, the other where he is dead.
Brian Nixon.

donald (03/02/83)

Concerning Brian Nixon's alleged differences between the Bible and
other books:

   - fulfilled prophecies
First of all, the New Testament was written AFTER the Old Testament.
Moreover, all the allegedly fulfilled prophecies that I've examined
depend on VERY (VERY!) liberal interpretations of scripture.  Of course, if
you're a "Late Great Planet Earth" fan, there's no hope for you...
CHALLENGE 1:  provide me with a specific example and we'll go at it.

   - the availability of Biblical manuscripts
Ahem.  The Hindu Vedas, the Koran, and the Bhagavad Gita are just as
"available".  So are Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories.
I see you've been reading Josh McDowell (of triple-L fame).

   - independent historical and archaeological records of Biblical events
So what?  Mohammed really existed too!  So does London and the British Empire;
the Indian Mutiny really happened too.  Thus, 2000 years hence,
archeologists will conclude that Sherlock Holmes really existed.
CHALLENGE 2: provide me with a significant Biblical event (e.g. Tower of
Babel, Flooding of the Earth (whole world, dammit), Creation of the Species,
Resurrection of Christ) that has been independently documented.

   - the testimony of changed lives.
Look at any major street in any major city and you'll see weirdly-dressed
people banging tambourines and singing "Hare Krishna, Hare Krisha,..."
Then there are moonies, scientologists, etc.  Belief does not a truth make.

	    What is the substantiation of miracles recorded in the Bible?
   In many cases, miracles are recorded as being witnessed by several people.
   These witnesses could be questioned and/or disproved when they
   recorded the events.  This written evidence is available in the Bible.

Like heck.  The key point is "miracles AS RECORDED".  Moreover,
in many cases (e.g. the feeding of the <some-large-number> by Jesus)
the "witnesses" most definitely did not do the recording.  As for the
Bible being used as the written evidence, this "reasoning" is so clearly
circular I wonder how anyone could try to argue with it.
My G*D, do you believe that the Greek gods existed because of the
Iliad and the Odyssey?

	What is the scientific basis for miracles?

A miracle is by definition something that is inherently inexplicable
by science, i.e. a violation of natural law.  Otherwise, lightning
bolts would be miracles if we didn't know anything about electricity
or the weather.  What is your criterion for deciding if something is
truly a "miracle"?  Certainly not something inexplicable by current
scientific theories!

CHALLENGE 3: provide a believable interpretation of the two accounts
of Judas' death.


					Flamingly,
					Don Chan

arens@UCBKIM (03/08/83)

From: arens@UCBKIM (Yigal Arens)
Received: from UCBKIM.ARPA by UCBVAX.ARPA (3.322/3.14)
	id AA08433; 8 Mar 83 01:41:34 PST (Tue)
To: net-religion@BERKELEY
In-Reply-To: Your message of  1 Mar 1983 1400-PST (Tuesday)


Ok, Larry West (trsvax!ljw) I'll take you up on your offer:

I'm curious -- what is the traditional explanation for the sudden reference
to people other than Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel?  It says in Genesis how Adam
and Eve were created, and the last two were their sons.  But where did the
people these sons married come from?  They seem to appear out of the blue.

Yigal Arens
UC Berkeley

jdj55611 (03/08/83)

No contradictions in the Bible in the last 1900+ years? Where have you 
been!  It seems to me that an excellent example of the contradictions
in the Bible are the 1900+ religious groups who call the Bible their
source of inspiration yet differ widely on what that means.

One error found in the Bible is in the two accounts of Paul's vision.
The first is found in

Acts 9:7    And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless
	    hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Compared to 

Acts 22:9   And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were 
	    afraid; but they heard not the voice of Him that spoke
	    to me.

In describing the same event in the same book, the story differs in
detail.

Another example is the death of Judas Iscariot

Acts 1:18   Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity
	    and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and
	    all his bowels gushed out.

Compare that to 

Matt 27:5   And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and
	    departed, and went and hanged himself.

You may consider this simply a typo, but how many other precepts were
"edited" by scribes as these books were passed along?

Another problem is the number of writings mentioned in the Bible but
are nowhere to be found. Here are some examples:

Exo 24:4	Book of the Covanent
Num 21:14	Book of the Wars of the Lord
Josh 10:13      Book of Jasher
2 Sam 1:18 	  "     "
1 Sam 10:25	A Book of Statutes
1 Kings 11:41	Book of the Acts of Solomon
Col 4:16	Missing Epistle of Paul
Eph 3:3		  "      "      "
Jude 3		Missing Epistle of Jude
Jude 14		Prophecies of Enoch

It would seem to me that if these writings were good enough to be
referenced in the Bible, they are good enough to be scripture!
All the above refer to the King James Version(!?)

				J.                                 J.

bis (03/08/83)

I notice that my reuquest for biblical contradictions is finally
bearing fruit (mucho latency on the net, I suppose).  However,
before things start to wander, I should mention that I am primarily
interested in real-live-honest-to-god factual contradictions. 
Prescriptive anomalies (e.g., "first it says sleep with your brother's
wife, and then it says that adultery is a sin") seem to be readily
"explained" via interpretative methods.  What I am really looking
for is contradictions of the form "the earth was created in one
day...the earth was created in seven days".  This would be harder to
explain, I suppose.  Such things may be harder to find, however,
since I would imagine that the millenia of scr

hutch (03/09/83)

(here we go again)

I am not Larry West, but I will comment on the cases JDJ brings up.

To the best of my knowledge, the book of Acts was not an attempt to
synthesize a complete and conflict-free history, but rather a history
of what was said and done by the apostles after Jesus' ascension to
Heaven.  (No flames on that topic, please, I am establishing context
here, not religious dogma)  As such, there will be places where the
differences between one telling and another will occur.  The first
case, where Paul describes an event to two different audiences which
were separated both by time and culture, has to be read in the Greek
to determine whether the apparent contradiction was introduced by
the translation.  I have not done this myself, but I was informed by
a minister-in-training that the wording between the two passages ID
(rats - no editor) IS important.  The reconstructed event was described
by this person as, Paul and at least two companions were travelling,
on their way to persecute a new Christian community.  A blinding light
appeared around them, and the two companions heard a voice, but did not
UNDERSTAND the words (translated as "did not hear").  Paul saw a vision
of Jesus, whom he had seen before His execution.  The companions did not
see the vision.  They did see the bright light.

The apparent conflict between the two versions of the death of Judas is
also a similar case, although I don't personally know how it was resolved.
It is important to remember that the accounts of eyewitnesses and the
variations introduced by rumors could be at work here, and it is necessary
to determine what the source of any contradiction is, BEFORE assuming that
it renders the entirety of a document suspect.

Incidentally, regarding the other books mentioned in JDJ's article,
I suspect the reason that they were excluded from scripture is that
reliable sources for them were either unavailable, or considered not
relevant to the Christian doctrine, or perhaps they were not considered
to be scripture but merely important records.  Our friendly Jewish scholars
out there might be better able to reply about some of them, since they
have a different body of holy writings to draw from.

Hutch
... decvax!tektronix!tekmdp!dadla!hutch

gh (03/10/83)

Hutch and some of the others tell us that the alleged Biblical contradictions
are not contradictions at all -- they only appear that way, until you study
subtleties of translation ("hear voice" -> "understand voice") etc.

My question for them is:
  If the Bible is divinely inspired, why does it even APPEAR to have contra-
dictions?  Why did not God inspire a clear, unambiguous book?  Why didn't he
inspire the translators as well, to ensure continued accuracy?  It seems to
me that if the Bible contains a message that God wanted to get across to the
world, He sure went the wrong way about doing it!

	Graeme Hirst, Brown Computer Science Cynic
	!decvax!brunix!gh	gh.brown@udel-relay

bis (03/11/83)

My original question on the subject of Biblical contradictions was not
too clear on this, but, what I am really looking for are instances of
inconsistencies that are not amenable to interpretation.  For example,
if the Bible states first that the earth was created in 6 days and then
sometime later that it was created in one day, there does not seem to be
much room for interpretation without allowing that both statements cannot
be literally true simultaneously.  The question is: do such blatant
contradictions exist?  I realize that there is a strong disincentive for
the religious-minded to allow such anomalies to remain, but, if they
really do regard the Bible as the word of God, they would be reluctant
to tamper with it as a propaganda instrument, thereby distorting the
original meaning.  (Or I am just being naive?)  Personally, I was rather
impressed with the inconsistency between the two accounts of Judas'
death.
		Andrew Shaw

P.S.	I bet someone will point out that God did not create a perfect
Bible (or force one to be maintained) because it would not then act as a
test of free will embracing the faith, or some such.

mikec (03/11/83)

Biblical contradictions

There are several thousand (different) Biblical contradictions,
translation errors, historical errors, and absurdities (not to
mention considerable fraud, forgery and quite gory immorality).
Secular scholars showed long ago that the "Holy" Bible was far
more hysterical than historical. The "supremely superstitious"
are still CERTAIN that there is something to it all (certainty
is, of course, required by their mysticism). Since there has been
at least one request for a discussion of such things (on the net)
I hereby offer my expertise (assuming sufficient interest). I
study religious mythology, supernaturalism, and other related
superstitions as a hobby (everybody should have one).

I offer the four different writing styles (choose one) :

  1. Scholarly. Like any contemporary nonreligious encyclopedia.
     Just the facts and critical reasoning.

  2. Amusing. One verse claims that a porcupine can "sing".

  3. Hard hitting. No holds barred. Acidic (pH less than 2.0).
     How the church attacked Ben Franklen for inventing the
     lightening rod and thwarting God's will.

  4. Any combination of the above.

  5. None of the above.

  In any case I will provide references, critical reasoning and
evidence. This is the critical difference between science and
any belief system.

  Not Baptized, Circumcised, or Exorcised :
  Micheal D. Cranford
  Tektronix
  Teklabs

mikec (03/15/83)

  While the death of Judas has been described as a "great
theological mystery", let me assure the reader that this
is not the only mysterious death recorded in the Bible. I
now present two more "deaths" that fall into the category of
"even more absurd". References are to the King James Version.

  In a rather fanciful tale in 1 Samuel, the Philistines show
up to do battle with the armies of Israel (1 Samuel 17:1..3).
But those sneaky Philistines have a dirty trick up their sleeve
having enlisted the aid of a personage of gigantic stature (the
original Big Foot ?)(1 Samuel 17:4). Goliath is, of course, quite
ignorant of any of the laws of physics. Strength is proportional
to the square of size while mass is proportional to the cube of
size. Thus, spiders have skinny legs relative to their bodies,
and elephants have thick legs relative to their bodies. This is
why VERY LARGE people (of carnival and sideshow fame) have severe
difficulty walking (or even standing) for very long. The narrator
of this fable continues to stuff both of his feet into his mouth
by telling us how impressive Goliath is bedecked out in his VERY
HEAVY armor (1 Samuel 17:4..7). Goliath then challenges the poor
Israelites, who are now shaking in their boots, ("... they were
dismayed, and greatly afraid.") to do battle (1 Samuel 17:8..11).
Lacking sufficient faith, the armies of Israel are forced to back
down and let a mere sheperd boy confront this menace face to face.
David then assaults the "big bad guy" with a sling causing Goliath
to respond with a definite change of attitude (from perpendicular
to parallel)(1 Samuel 17:12..49). Thus David slew mighty Goliath
(1 Samuel 17:50). You may have been led to believe that the story
ended there. However, a close examination of 2 Samuel 21:19 shows
that Goliath was killed at least twice ("... Elhanan ... slew THE
BROTHER OF Goliath ... whose spear was like a weaver's beam.").
Note that "the brother of" is in italics indicating that these
words did not appear in the original manuscript. The "ever pious"
translators tried to remove this contradiction by creating a long
lost brother for Goliath. The reference to a "weavers beam" also
occurs in 1 Samuel 17:7. The plains must have been littered with
the remains of giants named Goliath.

  Another funny fable is about the death of Saul. Saul committed
suicide by falling on his own sword (1 Samuel 31:4..6). Then Saul
talks an Amalekite into killing him (2 Samuel 1:8..19). Somewhat
later, Saul gets killed by the Philistines in Gilboa (2 Samuel 21
:12). Later yet, Saul kills himself (again ?) by falling on his
own sword (1 Chronicles 10:4). But the author of Chronicles gives
the final credit to God (1 Chronicles 10:13..14 "... therefore he
(God) slew him ...). It would seem that Saul tried to fall on his
own sword, but botched the job. Thus God, disguised as a Amalekite
impersonating a Philistine visiting Gilboa, had to finish him off.


Theological reasoning is sooo much fun. I think that I might have
cracked a rib.


Micheal D. Cranford
Tektronix
Teklabs

mikec (03/15/83)

  In the beginning man created his Gods. Fundamentalists have
been trying to make Hell on earth every since. The supremely
superstitious are certain that there is something to Divine
Revelation. They start out by assuming what they are trying to
prove and then declare a miracle has occurred when they end up
near their starting point.

  The first Biblical contradictions occur in the first chapter
of the first book. Here are a few of the several dozen known
errors in Genesis.

Verse(s)          Statement(s)

Genesis 1:11..12
Genesis 1:26..27  Grass and trees were created before man.

Genesis 2:7..9    Man was created before trees.

     Conclusion : Either (some) people are vegetables
                  or this is a "straw man" argument.


Genesis 1:20..22
Genesis 1:26..27  Birds (fowl) were created before man.

Genesis 2:7
Genesis 2:19      Man was created before birds.

     Conclusion : Some people are bird brained.


Genesis 1:24..27  Animals were created before man.

Genesis 2:7
Genesis 2:19      Man was created before animals.

     Conclusion : No matter what the outcome of evolutionary
                  debates, the Bible will be right again.


Genesis 1:27      Man and woman were created at the same time.

Genesis 2:7
Genesis 2:18..23  Man was created before woman.

     Conclusion : Fundamentalists are certain that a man
                  is at least 3 times better than a woman.


Genesis 1:31      "And God saw every thing that he had made, and,
                  behold, it was very good."

Genesis 6:6       "And it repented the Lord that he had made man
                  on earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

     Conclusion : Even the omnipotent and omniscient screw up.


Genesis 2:17      "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and
                  evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day
                  that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Genesis 3:3       "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the
                  midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall
                  not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest
                  ye die.

Genesis 5:5       "And all the days that Adam lived were nine
                  hundred and thirty years."

     Conclusion : Adam was wise to not nit-pick this one. Has
                  anyone out there ever eaten any "smart" fruit ?


Genesis 4:26      "... then began men to call upon the name of
                   the Lord."

Exodus 6:3        "... but my name JEHOVAH was I not known to
                  them."
                  In both verses the same Hebrew word is used in
                  the original (YHVH).

     Conclusion : Another example of "knowing without Knowing".


Genesis 6:2       "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men
                  that they were fair; and they took them wives
                  of all which they chose."

Genesis 6:4       "... when the sons of God came in unto the
                  daughters of men ...".
                  Note that God has several "sons".

1 John 4:9        "... God sent his only begotten son into the
                  world ...".

     Conclusion : In the old days, when families were overly
                  large (to combat high mortality rates), one
                  sometimes looses track of ones progeny.


Genesis 6:4       "There were giants (Nephilim) in the earth in
                  those days ...".

Genesis 7:21      "And all flesh died ... and every man:".
                  The only people to survive were Noah's clan.

Numbers 13:33     "And we saw the giants ... (Nephilim)".

     Conclusion : You can't keep a good giant down (see Goliath).


Genesis 6:19      "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of
                  every sort shalt thou bring into the ark ...".
                  Two of every kind.

Genesis 7:2..5    "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee
                  by sevens ... fowls also of the air by sevens
                  ... And Noah did according unto all that the
                  Lord commanded him."
                  Seven of some kinds.

     Conclusion : While "two" is a subset of "seven", the whole
                  fable is just plain silly. Where did all that
                  water come from ? Where did it go afterward ?
                  Two of every "sort" or "kind" would amount to
                  somewhere between 4,000,000 and 10,000,000
                  different animals on board the "ark". Note
                  that no mention is made of plants.


Micheal D. Cranford
Tektronix
Teklabs