simon (03/01/83)
Someone once said, I think it was Carl Sagan, that the extraordinary thing about von Daniekin's books is the density of logical errors and misleading information. Well yes--exactly, but what about the bible? Many people have pointed out chronological peculiarities in the old testament. There are also cases where one passage contradicts another. (Compare Lev 20:21 with Deut 25:5, these conflicting statements managed to inconvenience Henry VIII (then Prince Henry) in his marriage to Catherine of Aragon.) Then there is the problem of miracles, the evidence for which cannot said to be scientific. Myths concerning burning bushes, people walking on water, cataclysmic floods and so on, until they can be substantiated, are better regarded as products of a superstitious and ignorant imagination. Diderot wrote (in language intended to satisfy the censor) that "Happy the people whose religion asks it to believe only things true, holy, and sublime, and to imitate only virtuous actions. Such a religion is ours, in which the philosopher has only to follow his reason to arrive at the feet of our altars." This brings me to my two requests: 1) I'd like to see examples of favorite religious absurdities submitted to the net. 2) Is anything left after we strip away all the nonsense from the bible and, if so, how does it differ from what would be obtained by applying the same process to the writings of other religions?
donald (03/01/83)
My favorite Biblical contradiction is the two different accounts of the death of Judas. In the gospels it is recorded that he gave the money back to the priests, but then hanged himself. In the first part of Acts it is stated that he used the money to buy a field, but he fell headlong in it and burst apart (macabre!). I've presented this contradiction to several Christians of the fundamentalist ilk, but have never received a satisfactory answer. They could only manage a weak apology that Judas hanged himself, but after a while the rope broke and his body tumbled into the field and burst apart. Ye gods... Don Chan
ljw (03/01/83)
Every once in a while, someone who hasn't done any research on the matter points out what on the surface appear to be errors or contradictions in the Bible, yet after 1900+ years no one has come up with any "contradiction" that doesn't have an answer. Let's look at the Lev. 20:21 / Deut. 25:5 example: Lev. 20:21 states, "If a man takes his brother's wife, it is impurity; he has uncovered his brother's nakedness, they shall be childless." Deut. 25:5 states, "If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead shall not be married outside the family to a stranger; her husband's brother shall go in to her, and take her as his wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her." (both quotes from RSV). If one studies the context, one will find that the first case deals with incest or adultery ("takes" would be better translated "rapes"), while the brother is still alive. But when the brother dies, his wife is no longer married (see Rom. 7:2, I Cor. 7:39, et. al) and is freed to remarry. No in those days, all possessiwere handed down to the sons. If there was no sons to get the possessions, then the brother was to marry his sister-in-law, and raise up a son who would get to keep the dead brother's possessions, thus keeping the possessions in the family and not giving it to "strangers." If anyone is interested, there are several books on the topic of answering supposed contradictions and errors in the Bible. In my opinion, the best (and must reading for anyone thinking about coming up with a "new contra-diction") are those edited by Josh McDowell ("Evidence that demands a Verdict," "More Evidence that demands a verdict," "Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics Ask about the Christian Faith," et. al.). There are of course other books, but his are the most researched ones I've seen. By the way, as long as we are on the subject of "contradictions" and "absurdities", does anyone know of any books that answer point-by-point some of the "contradictions" in evolution (books similar in style to those mentioned above). I am specifically interested in why there are so many gaps in the fossil records among transitional life forms (i.e. half fish, half amphibian, quarter fish, three-quarter amphibian, etc.). Since you asked for a list of "absurdities", I'll offer one that is probably appropriate: Prov. 26:4 states that we are NOT to answer fools (lest you be like him yourself), whereas Prov. 26:5 states that we ARE to answer fools (lest he be wise in his own eyes). The reason for this difference is not visible to the unenlightened, for there are two different Hebrew words translated fool here. The "fool" in verse five means someone who doesn't know any better, and if you would correct them, they would accept the correction and would increase in knowledge. This word is often translated "simple (minded)". The fool in verse four, on the other hand, is a person whose mind is so closed that even if sound evidence were offered to the contrary, they would not accept the instruction due to the hardness of their heart (see also Prov.23:9). An example of this is the refusal of some scientists to visit the place in Texas where dinosaur tracks and human footprints were found side-by-side to see if it actually was true. Their "minds were made up and didn't want to be confused by the facts." I don't want to be a verse four type of fool (which is why I am asking for more information on evolution's reply to it's "alledged contradictions" before I offer any criticism on the subject.) and I hope this letter has helped. Larry J. West ...microsoft!trsvax!ljw P.S. If you find any "real" contradictions (and I don't mean smokescreens you developed to justify some sin), mail them to me. I live only a couple of miles from the largest seminary in the world (Southwestern Baptist), and would be delighted to research it for you and help you (and I) come to a fuller understanding of what the Bible teaches.
nixon (03/02/83)
1. What are the differences between the Bible and other books?
Consider:
- fulfilled prophecies
- the availability of Biblical manuscripts
- independent historical and archaeological records of Biblical events
- the testimony of changed lives.
2. What is the substantiation of miracles recorded in the Bible?
In many cases, miracles are recorded as being witnessed by several people.
These witnesses could be questioned and/or disproved when they
recorded the events. This written evidence is available in the Bible.
3. What is the scientific basis for miracles?
It should be admitted that both science and religion have certain axioms
(e.g. whether God is powerful enough to perform miracles).
The question is whether they are reasonable in view of the evidence.
4. What about Lev. 20:21 and Deut. 25:5?
>From the context, it seems clear that one verse considers the case where
the husband is alive, the other where he is dead.
Brian Nixon.
donald (03/02/83)
Concerning Brian Nixon's alleged differences between the Bible and other books: - fulfilled prophecies First of all, the New Testament was written AFTER the Old Testament. Moreover, all the allegedly fulfilled prophecies that I've examined depend on VERY (VERY!) liberal interpretations of scripture. Of course, if you're a "Late Great Planet Earth" fan, there's no hope for you... CHALLENGE 1: provide me with a specific example and we'll go at it. - the availability of Biblical manuscripts Ahem. The Hindu Vedas, the Koran, and the Bhagavad Gita are just as "available". So are Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories. I see you've been reading Josh McDowell (of triple-L fame). - independent historical and archaeological records of Biblical events So what? Mohammed really existed too! So does London and the British Empire; the Indian Mutiny really happened too. Thus, 2000 years hence, archeologists will conclude that Sherlock Holmes really existed. CHALLENGE 2: provide me with a significant Biblical event (e.g. Tower of Babel, Flooding of the Earth (whole world, dammit), Creation of the Species, Resurrection of Christ) that has been independently documented. - the testimony of changed lives. Look at any major street in any major city and you'll see weirdly-dressed people banging tambourines and singing "Hare Krishna, Hare Krisha,..." Then there are moonies, scientologists, etc. Belief does not a truth make. What is the substantiation of miracles recorded in the Bible? In many cases, miracles are recorded as being witnessed by several people. These witnesses could be questioned and/or disproved when they recorded the events. This written evidence is available in the Bible. Like heck. The key point is "miracles AS RECORDED". Moreover, in many cases (e.g. the feeding of the <some-large-number> by Jesus) the "witnesses" most definitely did not do the recording. As for the Bible being used as the written evidence, this "reasoning" is so clearly circular I wonder how anyone could try to argue with it. My G*D, do you believe that the Greek gods existed because of the Iliad and the Odyssey? What is the scientific basis for miracles? A miracle is by definition something that is inherently inexplicable by science, i.e. a violation of natural law. Otherwise, lightning bolts would be miracles if we didn't know anything about electricity or the weather. What is your criterion for deciding if something is truly a "miracle"? Certainly not something inexplicable by current scientific theories! CHALLENGE 3: provide a believable interpretation of the two accounts of Judas' death. Flamingly, Don Chan
arens@UCBKIM (03/08/83)
From: arens@UCBKIM (Yigal Arens) Received: from UCBKIM.ARPA by UCBVAX.ARPA (3.322/3.14) id AA08433; 8 Mar 83 01:41:34 PST (Tue) To: net-religion@BERKELEY In-Reply-To: Your message of 1 Mar 1983 1400-PST (Tuesday) Ok, Larry West (trsvax!ljw) I'll take you up on your offer: I'm curious -- what is the traditional explanation for the sudden reference to people other than Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel? It says in Genesis how Adam and Eve were created, and the last two were their sons. But where did the people these sons married come from? They seem to appear out of the blue. Yigal Arens UC Berkeley
jdj55611 (03/08/83)
No contradictions in the Bible in the last 1900+ years? Where have you been! It seems to me that an excellent example of the contradictions in the Bible are the 1900+ religious groups who call the Bible their source of inspiration yet differ widely on what that means. One error found in the Bible is in the two accounts of Paul's vision. The first is found in Acts 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless hearing a voice, but seeing no man. Compared to Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of Him that spoke to me. In describing the same event in the same book, the story differs in detail. Another example is the death of Judas Iscariot Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. Compare that to Matt 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. You may consider this simply a typo, but how many other precepts were "edited" by scribes as these books were passed along? Another problem is the number of writings mentioned in the Bible but are nowhere to be found. Here are some examples: Exo 24:4 Book of the Covanent Num 21:14 Book of the Wars of the Lord Josh 10:13 Book of Jasher 2 Sam 1:18 " " 1 Sam 10:25 A Book of Statutes 1 Kings 11:41 Book of the Acts of Solomon Col 4:16 Missing Epistle of Paul Eph 3:3 " " " Jude 3 Missing Epistle of Jude Jude 14 Prophecies of Enoch It would seem to me that if these writings were good enough to be referenced in the Bible, they are good enough to be scripture! All the above refer to the King James Version(!?) J. J.
bis (03/08/83)
I notice that my reuquest for biblical contradictions is finally bearing fruit (mucho latency on the net, I suppose). However, before things start to wander, I should mention that I am primarily interested in real-live-honest-to-god factual contradictions. Prescriptive anomalies (e.g., "first it says sleep with your brother's wife, and then it says that adultery is a sin") seem to be readily "explained" via interpretative methods. What I am really looking for is contradictions of the form "the earth was created in one day...the earth was created in seven days". This would be harder to explain, I suppose. Such things may be harder to find, however, since I would imagine that the millenia of scr
hutch (03/09/83)
(here we go again) I am not Larry West, but I will comment on the cases JDJ brings up. To the best of my knowledge, the book of Acts was not an attempt to synthesize a complete and conflict-free history, but rather a history of what was said and done by the apostles after Jesus' ascension to Heaven. (No flames on that topic, please, I am establishing context here, not religious dogma) As such, there will be places where the differences between one telling and another will occur. The first case, where Paul describes an event to two different audiences which were separated both by time and culture, has to be read in the Greek to determine whether the apparent contradiction was introduced by the translation. I have not done this myself, but I was informed by a minister-in-training that the wording between the two passages ID (rats - no editor) IS important. The reconstructed event was described by this person as, Paul and at least two companions were travelling, on their way to persecute a new Christian community. A blinding light appeared around them, and the two companions heard a voice, but did not UNDERSTAND the words (translated as "did not hear"). Paul saw a vision of Jesus, whom he had seen before His execution. The companions did not see the vision. They did see the bright light. The apparent conflict between the two versions of the death of Judas is also a similar case, although I don't personally know how it was resolved. It is important to remember that the accounts of eyewitnesses and the variations introduced by rumors could be at work here, and it is necessary to determine what the source of any contradiction is, BEFORE assuming that it renders the entirety of a document suspect. Incidentally, regarding the other books mentioned in JDJ's article, I suspect the reason that they were excluded from scripture is that reliable sources for them were either unavailable, or considered not relevant to the Christian doctrine, or perhaps they were not considered to be scripture but merely important records. Our friendly Jewish scholars out there might be better able to reply about some of them, since they have a different body of holy writings to draw from. Hutch ... decvax!tektronix!tekmdp!dadla!hutch
gh (03/10/83)
Hutch and some of the others tell us that the alleged Biblical contradictions are not contradictions at all -- they only appear that way, until you study subtleties of translation ("hear voice" -> "understand voice") etc. My question for them is: If the Bible is divinely inspired, why does it even APPEAR to have contra- dictions? Why did not God inspire a clear, unambiguous book? Why didn't he inspire the translators as well, to ensure continued accuracy? It seems to me that if the Bible contains a message that God wanted to get across to the world, He sure went the wrong way about doing it! Graeme Hirst, Brown Computer Science Cynic !decvax!brunix!gh gh.brown@udel-relay
bis (03/11/83)
My original question on the subject of Biblical contradictions was not too clear on this, but, what I am really looking for are instances of inconsistencies that are not amenable to interpretation. For example, if the Bible states first that the earth was created in 6 days and then sometime later that it was created in one day, there does not seem to be much room for interpretation without allowing that both statements cannot be literally true simultaneously. The question is: do such blatant contradictions exist? I realize that there is a strong disincentive for the religious-minded to allow such anomalies to remain, but, if they really do regard the Bible as the word of God, they would be reluctant to tamper with it as a propaganda instrument, thereby distorting the original meaning. (Or I am just being naive?) Personally, I was rather impressed with the inconsistency between the two accounts of Judas' death. Andrew Shaw P.S. I bet someone will point out that God did not create a perfect Bible (or force one to be maintained) because it would not then act as a test of free will embracing the faith, or some such.
mikec (03/11/83)
Biblical contradictions There are several thousand (different) Biblical contradictions, translation errors, historical errors, and absurdities (not to mention considerable fraud, forgery and quite gory immorality). Secular scholars showed long ago that the "Holy" Bible was far more hysterical than historical. The "supremely superstitious" are still CERTAIN that there is something to it all (certainty is, of course, required by their mysticism). Since there has been at least one request for a discussion of such things (on the net) I hereby offer my expertise (assuming sufficient interest). I study religious mythology, supernaturalism, and other related superstitions as a hobby (everybody should have one). I offer the four different writing styles (choose one) : 1. Scholarly. Like any contemporary nonreligious encyclopedia. Just the facts and critical reasoning. 2. Amusing. One verse claims that a porcupine can "sing". 3. Hard hitting. No holds barred. Acidic (pH less than 2.0). How the church attacked Ben Franklen for inventing the lightening rod and thwarting God's will. 4. Any combination of the above. 5. None of the above. In any case I will provide references, critical reasoning and evidence. This is the critical difference between science and any belief system. Not Baptized, Circumcised, or Exorcised : Micheal D. Cranford Tektronix Teklabs
mikec (03/15/83)
While the death of Judas has been described as a "great theological mystery", let me assure the reader that this is not the only mysterious death recorded in the Bible. I now present two more "deaths" that fall into the category of "even more absurd". References are to the King James Version. In a rather fanciful tale in 1 Samuel, the Philistines show up to do battle with the armies of Israel (1 Samuel 17:1..3). But those sneaky Philistines have a dirty trick up their sleeve having enlisted the aid of a personage of gigantic stature (the original Big Foot ?)(1 Samuel 17:4). Goliath is, of course, quite ignorant of any of the laws of physics. Strength is proportional to the square of size while mass is proportional to the cube of size. Thus, spiders have skinny legs relative to their bodies, and elephants have thick legs relative to their bodies. This is why VERY LARGE people (of carnival and sideshow fame) have severe difficulty walking (or even standing) for very long. The narrator of this fable continues to stuff both of his feet into his mouth by telling us how impressive Goliath is bedecked out in his VERY HEAVY armor (1 Samuel 17:4..7). Goliath then challenges the poor Israelites, who are now shaking in their boots, ("... they were dismayed, and greatly afraid.") to do battle (1 Samuel 17:8..11). Lacking sufficient faith, the armies of Israel are forced to back down and let a mere sheperd boy confront this menace face to face. David then assaults the "big bad guy" with a sling causing Goliath to respond with a definite change of attitude (from perpendicular to parallel)(1 Samuel 17:12..49). Thus David slew mighty Goliath (1 Samuel 17:50). You may have been led to believe that the story ended there. However, a close examination of 2 Samuel 21:19 shows that Goliath was killed at least twice ("... Elhanan ... slew THE BROTHER OF Goliath ... whose spear was like a weaver's beam."). Note that "the brother of" is in italics indicating that these words did not appear in the original manuscript. The "ever pious" translators tried to remove this contradiction by creating a long lost brother for Goliath. The reference to a "weavers beam" also occurs in 1 Samuel 17:7. The plains must have been littered with the remains of giants named Goliath. Another funny fable is about the death of Saul. Saul committed suicide by falling on his own sword (1 Samuel 31:4..6). Then Saul talks an Amalekite into killing him (2 Samuel 1:8..19). Somewhat later, Saul gets killed by the Philistines in Gilboa (2 Samuel 21 :12). Later yet, Saul kills himself (again ?) by falling on his own sword (1 Chronicles 10:4). But the author of Chronicles gives the final credit to God (1 Chronicles 10:13..14 "... therefore he (God) slew him ...). It would seem that Saul tried to fall on his own sword, but botched the job. Thus God, disguised as a Amalekite impersonating a Philistine visiting Gilboa, had to finish him off. Theological reasoning is sooo much fun. I think that I might have cracked a rib. Micheal D. Cranford Tektronix Teklabs
mikec (03/15/83)
In the beginning man created his Gods. Fundamentalists have been trying to make Hell on earth every since. The supremely superstitious are certain that there is something to Divine Revelation. They start out by assuming what they are trying to prove and then declare a miracle has occurred when they end up near their starting point. The first Biblical contradictions occur in the first chapter of the first book. Here are a few of the several dozen known errors in Genesis. Verse(s) Statement(s) Genesis 1:11..12 Genesis 1:26..27 Grass and trees were created before man. Genesis 2:7..9 Man was created before trees. Conclusion : Either (some) people are vegetables or this is a "straw man" argument. Genesis 1:20..22 Genesis 1:26..27 Birds (fowl) were created before man. Genesis 2:7 Genesis 2:19 Man was created before birds. Conclusion : Some people are bird brained. Genesis 1:24..27 Animals were created before man. Genesis 2:7 Genesis 2:19 Man was created before animals. Conclusion : No matter what the outcome of evolutionary debates, the Bible will be right again. Genesis 1:27 Man and woman were created at the same time. Genesis 2:7 Genesis 2:18..23 Man was created before woman. Conclusion : Fundamentalists are certain that a man is at least 3 times better than a woman. Genesis 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." Genesis 6:6 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on earth, and it grieved him at his heart. Conclusion : Even the omnipotent and omniscient screw up. Genesis 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 3:3 "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Genesis 5:5 "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years." Conclusion : Adam was wise to not nit-pick this one. Has anyone out there ever eaten any "smart" fruit ? Genesis 4:26 "... then began men to call upon the name of the Lord." Exodus 6:3 "... but my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them." In both verses the same Hebrew word is used in the original (YHVH). Conclusion : Another example of "knowing without Knowing". Genesis 6:2 "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose." Genesis 6:4 "... when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men ...". Note that God has several "sons". 1 John 4:9 "... God sent his only begotten son into the world ...". Conclusion : In the old days, when families were overly large (to combat high mortality rates), one sometimes looses track of ones progeny. Genesis 6:4 "There were giants (Nephilim) in the earth in those days ...". Genesis 7:21 "And all flesh died ... and every man:". The only people to survive were Noah's clan. Numbers 13:33 "And we saw the giants ... (Nephilim)". Conclusion : You can't keep a good giant down (see Goliath). Genesis 6:19 "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark ...". Two of every kind. Genesis 7:2..5 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens ... fowls also of the air by sevens ... And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him." Seven of some kinds. Conclusion : While "two" is a subset of "seven", the whole fable is just plain silly. Where did all that water come from ? Where did it go afterward ? Two of every "sort" or "kind" would amount to somewhere between 4,000,000 and 10,000,000 different animals on board the "ark". Note that no mention is made of plants. Micheal D. Cranford Tektronix Teklabs