bobb (03/14/83)
My knowledge of how to use the mail system being incomplete, I have been trying
for some time without success to reply to some mail I received. However, I think
that the query and my reply would be of general interest, so I will post them.
Okay, I'll bite. What is the test for your claim? The Bible
is the claim, not evidence for it. Individual salvific
experiences are not evidence unless it can be shown that
they differ in quality and "reality" from those of other
religions. Miracles are not evidence unless the circumstances
can be independently verified by scientific method.
In short, on what basis do you claim that Christianity is
different from any other religion? I would like to know,
since I have never heard any evidence other than that above,
which is obviously invalid.
My apologies to the author of the above message for my inability to get a prompt
personal reply to him. My reply is:
The basic difference between Christianity and other religions is that
the Christian God is a living God who is personally involved with each
individual. No other religion can make this claim.
The test for the claim is that the results in an individual's life are
as stated. The basic claim is a familiar verse "For God so loved the
world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in
him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) As I
stated in one of my articles, we are all guilty of breaking God's law:
"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and
men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
(John 3:19) Trust in Christ removes the penalty: "There is therefore no
condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the
flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1)
The claim is not only forgiveness but also a new ability. The position
of man is accurately described by Paul: "for what I would, that do I
not; but what I hate, that do I." (Romans 7:15) But, "Therefore, if
any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away;
behold all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17)
Since the claim is an individual claim, the test must be an individual
test. While I agree that 'Individual salvific experiences are not
evidence unless it can be shown that they differ in quality and
"reality" from those of other religions,' I believe that they do so
differ. "I know God is alive; I talked to him today" is the Christian's
experience.
I was brought up in a Christian environment, so I don't have a dramatic
conversion story to tell. However, I have had, and know others who have
had, experiences that convince me that God is truly alive. I believe that
these experiences cannot be duplicated by other religions. If you wish to
disregard such experiences and believe that those who have them are lying
or have been fooled, then of course you may. But I note with interest
that in most of life (including on the UNIX net), personal experiences
are requested and valued as an aid in forming opinions. Yet experiences
with Christianity are often discounted as valueless.
The experiences of others can be no more than aids. The test must be a
personal one. "Seek and ye shall find." (Matthew 7:7) The way for an
individual to test this claim is to seek and discover whether or not
he finds. (I must add, however, that the "seeking" must not be seeking
after merely an experience or a proof that God exists. It must be based
on a desire to find God's plan and accept the forgiveness, power, and
change it offers.) Until you have individually tested God, you will
never know that He is real. I urge you to do this.
In addition to its claims, the Bible contains statments which can be
tested to determine whether or not they are true. Some of the strongest
objective evidence is fulfilled prophecy concerning Israel.
The theme of a regathered Israel in the latter days runs throughout the
Old Testament. For many years Christians who believed this were laughed
at. Today we see the reality in the headlines. Consider Ezekiel's
prophecy of a ". . .land that is brought back from the sword, and is
gathered out of many people, . . .the mountains of Israel, which have
been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations. . . ."
(Ezekiel 38:8). This is a good description of the present nation of
Israel. The passage tells of a future attack upon Israel by "Gog, the
land of Magog, the chief prince of Mesech and Tubal." (Ezekiel 38:2)
These names have long been identified with tribes that settled in Russia,
which lies to the north of Israel and is her foe today. There are many
more such prophecies.
Bob Bales
Tektronixpalmer (03/15/83)
Bob Bales claims that his religion is the only one which has a living god. His attitude is "I know god is alive, I talked with him today." Balderdash There are many, many other religions with living gods. Up until a few years ago Jim Jones was running one, then all his followers ascended into heaven. (Is that any more ridiculous than the claims some Christians have made? I think not.) If you want to get in on the ground floor af a religion, there are plenty which let you talk to God, and in some of them, God even replies. As for myself, I will stick to omnideism (is that the right word for the doctrine that "everything is god"?) That way, whenever I'm talking, even to myself, I'm talking to God. David Palmer
tim (03/15/83)
Since my reply doesn't seem to have gotten to teklabs!bobb, and he has posted his article to the net, I'm posting my reply to the net. In the following, all the indented copy is from his bobb's letter to me, and all else is mine. Subject: Evidencies for Christianity and the Bible The basic difference between Christianity and other religions is that the Christian God is a living God who is personally involved with each individual. No other religion can make this claim. I don't know of many religions that do *not* make this claim. I don't know of any religion at all that couldn't make this claim if they wanted to, despite what you say. The test for the claim is that the results in an individual's life are as stated. The basic claim is a familiar verse "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) As I stated in one of my articles, we are all guilty of breaking God's law: "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (John 3:19) Trust in Christ removes the penalty: "There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1) The claim is not only forgiveness but also a new ability. The position of man is accurately described by Paul: "for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." (Romans 7:15) But, "Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17) I've read most of the Bible. What you must realize is that quoting the Bible only carries weight if you've already accepted it. I could quote you many verses from the Koran that make similar statements. Since the claim is an individual claim, the test must be an individual test. While I agree that 'Individual salvific experiences are not evidence unless it can be shown that they differ in quality and "reality" from those of other religions,' I believe that they do so differ. "I know God is alive; I talked to him today" is the Christian's experience. How do you know they differ? Have you had any of them? The intensity of your experience, which you mention in that last sentence, doesn't mean that a Hindu couldn't feel the same way about Vishnu. "I know that Vishnu is alive; I talked to him today." I was brought up in a Christian environment, so I don't have a dramatic conversion story to tell. However, I have had, and know others who have had, experiences that convince me that God is truly alive. I believe that these experiences cannot be duplicated by other religions. If you wish to disregard such experiences and believe that those who have them are lying or have been fooled, then of course you may. But I note with interest that in most of life (including on the UNIX net), personal experiences are requested and valued as an aid in forming opinions. Yet experiences with Christianity are often discounted as valueless. You say I can't dismiss the experiences of Christians, but must dismiss the experiences of those of other faiths. Why should I treat you specially? The experiences of others can be no more than aids. The test must be a personal one. "Seek and ye shall find." (Matthew 7:7) The way for an individual to test this claim is to seek and discover whether or not he finds. (I must add, however, that the "seeking" must not be seeking after merely an experience or a proof that God exists. It must be based on a desire to find God's plan and accept the forgiveness, power, and change it offers.) Until you have individually tested God, you will never know that He is real. I urge you to do this. I have. Yours is not the only God I have so tested; I tried not to enter the search with preconceptions of what God would be like, since I would no doubt find exactly what I expected to find. I suggest that you have not done this, but only attempted to find a clearer image of the God you had already accepted. I had religious experiences within the contexts of many faiths, which is why I cannot take such a short-sighted and limiting view as that of Christianity, or any single faith. In addition to its claims, the Bible contains statments which can be tested to determine whether or not they are true. Some of the strongest objective evidence are the fulfilled prophecies concerning Israel. The theme of a regathered Israel in the latter days runs throughout the Old Testament. For many years Christians who believed this were laughed at. Today we see the reality in the headlines. Consider Ezekiel's prophecy of a ". . .land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, . . .the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations. . . ." (Ezekiel 38:8). This is a good description of the present nation of Israel. The passage tells of a future attack upon Israel by "Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Mesech and Tubal." (Ezekiel 38:2) These names have long been identified with tribes that settled in Russia, which lies to the north of Israel and is her foe today. There are many more such prophecies. Israel was created in deliberate fulfillment of the prophecies; if the prophecies had been different, so would Israel have been. You are talking about a classic example of self-fulfilling prophecy. As to the identification of tribes with Russians, who has done the identification? Hal Lindsey? Feel free to respond, but don't expect me to not point out the absurdities of your rationalizations. I would also appreciate a little less jingoism where other faiths are concerned. Tim Maroney decvax!duke!unc!tim
sher (03/21/83)
I hope I am not butting into a private discussion but I will anyway. I'm afraid that Christianity can not claim exclusive rights to a living God. I am not sure what "living" means with respect to God but if it means that he acts and that one can hold conversations with him then my personal form of Judaism (not to be confused with any official or other unofficial form of Judaism) has a living God. As far as Biblical claims with regard to Israel, are you claiming that Christianity has exclusive rights to them? Judaism exists and shares alot of literature and countries with Christianity and very little else. -David Sher (ofttimes AI project)%%EOF%%
steve (03/22/83)
#R:tektronix:-101700:zinfandel:17500004:000:236 zinfandel!steve Mar 20 10:44:00 1983 "As for myself, I will stick to omnideism (is that the right word for the doctrine that "everything is god"?)" The word is "pantheism" and it would approximate my own beliefs if it weren't so tautological. zinfandel!steve nelson