avi (03/24/83)
I am afraid I may have been misunderstood. I am not debating the right of Dave Lee (or anyone) to speak on the net - as Vickie Klick may have assumed. I was trying to comment that I could not be convinced by anyone who did not follow any of the rules I like to play the game by. Dave can keep submitting, and I will probably continue to be amused by his statements and attempts to resolve contradictions with quotations that seem to be chosen at random. I am particularly amused by quoting from the "Old Testament" to prove anything about Jesus and Christianity - as if there could not be any alternate explanations for what those passages refer to! Isn't there anyone else out there who often fails to understand how some of the Bible passages quoted by various people on the net are related to the point the author wants to make? I am not saying that amateurs should not attempt to interpret the bible. I am just saying that they often tend to make serious errors in judgement because they jump to conclusions based on limited evidence - and then defend their first impressions no matter what new evidence is presented. I object to the attitude that some "fundamentalists" (of any faith) have about their religion. After they have decided that it is the total truth, they try to "prove" it. If it is so "true', then why bother with proof? I have had much of my experience with various brands of Jewish Fundamentalists because I was raised Orthodox. Some of them are even more irritating than anything I have seen on the net. Luckily, they form a minority within the Jewish World (and within Orthodox Judaism). Part of what got me into such a flaming mood, was that Dave reminded me of how useful it was to debate with some of them. I was not trying to be anti-Christian. I just am not very much for any group that KNOWS what is good for me and does not care whether I want something else. I am equally against: - Khomeini's attempt to make Iran a totally Moslem state. - Attempts to make Israel into a "religious" Jewish State. - Any attempt to make America into a religious "Christian State". - Attempts by communist countries (such as the USSR) to make atheism the official (and legal) "religion" in their sphere of influence. - Book burnings, censorship ..... With regard to Vickies comments that I should follow my traditions while allowing Dave to follow his, I am puzzled. I am NOT following my traditions. I have decided that all the traditions I have seen all make equally much (or dare I say equally little) sense. Most contain some elements of wisdom, along with tons of garbage that accumulate over the ages. I prefer not to accept all the religious laws and prohibitions that come with some of the nice moral principles. I am attached to some of the culture, but not to the dogma of the truly orthodox. Finally, I have a comment about some comments made by Tim Maroney: Christians *are* preaching on the net. What's wrong with that? If they truly believe, it's their duty to preach. What I object to is distortion and confusion. Why is it their duty to "preach". I have heard the argument that says that we do not have to listen. Why should I have to unsuscribe to net.religion, to avoid preachers. I do not intend to, but I know dozens of people who have. I would be glad to create net.evang (with all its subgroups like net.evang.catholic, net.evang.baptist, ... net.evang.mormon, .... net.evang.moonies) so that people do have a forum to preach in and most of us could stay away from those groups. People do have the right to smoke, but I am very happy that the law says that many places such as airlines must supply me with an area where I too can breathe. Finally, I wonder why some of you feel you are being persecuted every time someone disagrees with you or questions your reasoning (or - heaven forbid - your basic premises). I would not take it personally if someone responded to my statements by giving reasonable alternative views and including some reasons for their opinions. If convinced, I would admit it. The problem with religion is (almost by definition) that many "faiths" involve maintaining an unquestioning state of belief in order to attain some level of salvation. When someone comes along and says "I refuse to BELIEVE", you have to convince me with FACTS ...." this questions the entire foundations of these religions. As some people have already mentioned in this group, "What is there about the miraculous occurences claimed by one group that sets them apart from the ones claimed by any other group." Why should I believe the claims of any group more than those of another? Why not believe in Olympic gods or Peter Pan or the Tooth fairy? I do not believe any scientific theories that do not have adequate supportive evidence, either. I am quite comfortable with relativity theory, but would not be surprised if some new equations would have to be developed to deal with some conditions Einstein did not account for - just as Newton's laws had to be modified to deal with events occuring at higher speeds. Since this letter has gotten quite long, I think I will retire and try to catch all the medical 'mistakes' in this weeks episode of "Quincy". Avi Gross (houx[a-z]!hogpd!avi)
tim (03/24/83)
Re Avi Gross's letter: Preaching is a duty of the Christian because he (sorry ladies; it's the language that's sexist, not me) believes that he has the right answers to the questions, and his answers are of the sort that affect everyone. I don't happen to believe the Christian viewpoint -- in fact, I think it's pretty silly -- but I do recognize that from a Christian's viewpoint, the only consistent course of action is an attempt to convert everyone, so that they won't go to Hell. A Christian who doesn't preach is showing insensitivity. Do you expect a forum on religion in which no one tries to convince anyone else of anything? Avi is right about how these people over-react to criticism. The TV ministries are excellent examples of this; Jim Bakker and Jerry Falwell make it clear that the modern Christian's idea of persecution is being forced to peacefully coexist with people who believe differently from them. I can just imagine the early Christians hearing about a multi- million dollar TV ministry with gold-plated plumbing in the dressing rooms being "persecuted". Tim Maroney