donald (04/10/83)
Re: Ralph's argument for free will: ... I think it involves VOLUNTARY relinquishing of CONTROL on His part. Thus WE choose, and although he can KNOW what we will choose, it is OUR choice and thus responsibility. And this is where I think your analogy with the LISP program doesn't hold. You are in full control at all times. What you are calling "free will" is only our own ignorance of the future. You admit that God can see everything in the future. If there is anything for him to see, that must mean that we're all puppets. Otherwise there'd be nothing for him to see, and we'd have true free will, but then God can't see the future! NOW, The fact that God created the universe means that not only are we all puppets, but we're HIS puppets. That's why I say that if God is both all-knowing and all-powerful, then He's not loving or merciful-- He's just a puppet master having his jollies. I'll grant you that God can voluntarily relinquish control, in the sense that once he sets a configuration of matter and energy going, he lets it continue unmolested (aside: a "miracle" by definition would then be an occasion where he molests the evolution of the initial configuration). But, unlike me and my LISP program, if He knows everything that's going to happen for any initial configuration, then everything that happens is His fault. Just like if I know that my own LISP program craps out at 00000666 then it's my fault. This is my last try at explaining this! :-) Don Chan
dje (04/11/83)
The concept of free will seems to be causing some problems here. It is claimed that if God knows what choices we will make, then we are left as puppets. We are puppets only if we choose to see ourselves that way! If I have a choice to make between alternative courses of action, the choice is mine, and nothing takes that away. If God knows what I will do, this in no way AFFECTS my choice. It is precisely this kind of INDEPENDENCE that makes my choice truly free will. Conclusion: there need not be a conflict between free will and the notion of God knowing the future. Dave Ellis Bell Labs, Piscataway NJ ...!harpo!npoiv!npois!houxm!5941ux!dje ...!ariel!houti!hogpc!houxm!5941ux!dje