lab (04/03/83)
FtG has made a public charge that I have posted Anti-Semitic material. This warrants a two-fold reply: that the references quoted were not anti-Semitic, and that I have not given anti-Semitic meaning to them. C.S.Lewis's reference to the things Jesus said and did are based on the records penned by the following men: Matthew (Levi), a SEMITE tax collector John Mark, cousin to Joseph Barnabas, a Levite & SEMITE Luke, (probably Gentile) traveling companion of Saul of Tarsus John, a SEMITE fisherman Saul of Tarsus, a Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin (also known as the Apostle Paul), SEMITE I rather doubt that any of the above-named were anti-Semitic, especially since they attributed divinity to another SEMITE of the tribe of Judah and the house and lineage of David. For me personally to be anti-Semitic is a contradiction of my faith. I have believed the record given in the Hebrew Bible (by SEMITES), that is points toward a particular SEMITE (Jesus), and that I am now a son by faith of the SEMITE Abraham (Galatians 3:29). Further, my God is the God of Israel, who has not cast His people off, but will redeem them at His appointed time. Christianity is not a Gentile religion. In fact, the Jewish Christians were astonished that God would grant the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life (Acts 11:18). Points to Ponder: Islam has its own separate set of teaching by Jesus; were they done by His contemporaries? What accuracy can be granted them? If the Moslem tradition is that someone else was mistaken for Jesus and crucified in His place, what happened to the body? (for fun and flaming, what happened to the body of Jesus, anyway? Serious stuff, please. The advice columns give me enough laughs daily.) If there was a case of mistaken identity, consider: "Many a man will die for what he believes is true. Who will die for what he knows is false?" (the followers, not the leader) Keeping it at 4 Celsius, Larry Bickford decvax!decwrl!qubix!lab
avi (04/04/83)
I am not responding to the original comments about Anti-Semitism. I just want to comment on some of Larry Bickford's Statements in which he defends himself from the charge - not on the original charge. My definition of Anti-Semitism involves acts that reflect on Jews in the present day and age. It does not include other "semites" such as many of the Arabs in the region. It does not matter to me if someone liked what SOME Jews did several thousand years ago. Most present day Jews do not consider the early converts to Christianity to be Jewish. Once you convert to what is considered "Idol Worship", you are no longer a member of the "Jewish religious fold" and can not be used as an example of a Jew. This is definitely true from the Orthodox viewpoint, and many of the other branches of Judaism would also agree. Jesus may have been born Jewish (although of questionable parentage), but any followers who worshiped him (and his image) would be considered Idol Worshipers. His entire following is considered an embarrassment to most Jews. We are not proud of them or their teachings. I also debate the statement Larry made about whether Jews and Christians worship the same God. Do you also claim the Moslems have the same God? What do all these "Gods" have in common? Jews do not believe any of the modifications added by Jesus and Mohammed and their followers. We also disagree with the way that all the books we had are reinterpreted by others. Obviously everyone is free to interpret. However, do not make any claims of commonality after you have done so. You now have SEVERAL disparate religions that share common origins. The early Christians were only successful in converting a rather small minority of the Jews they lived among. You are claiming that the fact that you agree with a small group of "SEMITES" proves you are not Anti-Semitic. What about the rest of us? Don't our religious beliefs - which have a rather broad range - count? Please don't use sophomoric tricks like this to try to wriggle out of any charges. I do not remember what the original statements involved were. My impression is that your statements denied Jews (among others) the right to have their own religious beliefs. That is not necessarily Anti-Semitism. It may be the harbinger of plain old Discrimination against any group whose beliefs cannot be mapped isomorphically onto yours. Avi E. Gross (ihnp4!houxb!hogpd!avi)
dje (04/08/83)
Let's clear the air on anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism means hostility to JEWS. Whether or not a person is of Semitic descent is IRRELEVANT. Any attempt to disparage Jewish beliefs or to slur Jews for holding such beliefs is ANTI-SEMITISM. The excuse "I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm a Semite myself" ranks right up there with "I vas only follovink orders" at the head of the parade of the vile and repugnant. I'm not accusing anybody in particular of anti-Semitism. I'm asking everybody to open their eyes and ears to be aware of both the overt and the subtle hostility that Jews can be confronted with. Dave Ellis Bell Labs, Piscataway NJ ...!harpo!npoiv!npois!houxm!5941ux!dje ...!ariel!houti!hogpc!houxm!5941ux!dje
dje (04/14/83)
Arabs are Semites, too. As I stated previously, anti-Semitism is defined to be hostility to Jews as opposed to hostility to all Semites. Let's not use "Arabs are Semites, too" as a smokescreen for hostility to Jews.
dje (04/19/83)
<<"If anti-Semitism is confined to hostility to Jews (highly logical), then what is the term for the people I have run into (many of them Jews) who don't like Arabs?">> I don't know if there is a special term for "anti-Arabism." Bigotry is vicious no matter whom it's directed against.