ucbvax:arens@UCBKIM (04/22/83)
From: arens@UCBKIM (Yigal Arens) Received: from UCBKIM.ARPA by UCBVAX.ARPA (3.332/3.21) id AA08450; 22 Apr 83 02:48:23 PST (Fri) To: net-religion@BERKELEY In-Reply-To: Your message of 20 Apr 1983 1831-PST (Wednesday) I've read the various messages and counter-messages concerning my original observation that people tend to claim that their god tells them to do what they wanted to do in the first place. Maybe I should mention here that what I was really referring to was to religious organizations, or movements, and not necessarily to the choices of individuals. Not that the same is not true for individual choices (it *must* be, since there *is* no god...), but the issue is somewhat clearer in the former case. The best way to see this is to notice how many different religious movements there are holding widely varying views, but all claiming to interpret the same book(s) and follow the teachings of the same god. People will then choose the sect holding whatever views they agree with, and claim that it is actually their *god* telling them what to do... I mean, compare the followers of the Nazi "Rabbi" Kahane with the gay Jewish congregation "Sha'ar Zahav" in San Francisco. Or Jerry Falwell followers with your favorite pacifist christian group. While I'm at it, I would like to express my utter amazement at how Randall Elliott can say things like the following: "God is waiting for US. God wants as many people as He can get into eternity. Therfore, the message of Jesus has to be spread to all people so all can have the chance to make the choice to follow and to get the gift of eternal life. God isn't going to spend forever with people who don't love Him. He has enough problems with those who do." How *dare* he (and he isn't alone in this) speak so casually about what god wants, what god's intentions are, what god is or isn't going to do, etc. What on earth gives Randall the notion that he has even the slightest idea of what (if anything) is behind his god's actions?! And I don't want to hear any quotes from any scriptures! How do you know what they are really about or why they are there? I think this is a serious question. It is what really lies at the heart of the issue I raised above. Yigal Arens UC Berkeley
arens@UCBKIM (04/25/83)
From: arens@UCBKIM (Yigal Arens) Received: from UCBKIM.ARPA by UCBVAX.ARPA (3.332/3.21) id AA02508; 24 Apr 83 22:52:28 PDT (Sun) To: net-religion@BERKELEY In-Reply-To: Your message of 20 Apr 1983 1831-PST (Wednesday) [There've been some problems with mail here recently and I'm not sure this got out. If it did -- I apologize. Yigal] I've read the various messages and counter-messages concerning my original observation that people tend to claim that their god tells them to do what they wanted to do in the first place. Maybe I should mention here that what I was really referring to was to religious organizations, or movements, and not necessarily to the choices of individuals. Not that the same is not true for individual choices (it *must* be, since there *is* no god...), but the issue is somewhat clearer in the former case. The best way to see this is to notice how many different religious movements there are holding widely varying views, but all claiming to interpret the same book(s) and follow the teachings of the same god. People will then choose the sect holding whatever views they agree with, and claim that it is actually their *god* telling them what to do... I mean, compare the followers of the Nazi "Rabbi" Kahane with the gay Jewish congregation "Sha'ar Zahav" in San Francisco. Or Jerry Falwell followers with your favorite pacifist christian group. While I'm at it, I would like to express my utter amazement at how Randall Elliott can say things like the following: "God is waiting for US. God wants as many people as He can get into eternity. Therfore, the message of Jesus has to be spread to all people so all can have the chance to make the choice to follow and to get the gift of eternal life. God isn't going to spend forever with people who don't love Him. He has enough problems with those who do." How *dare* he (and he isn't alone in this) speak so casually about what god wants, what god's intentions are, what god is or isn't going to do, etc. What on earth gives Randall the notion that he has even the slightest idea of what (if anything) is behind his god's actions?! And I don't want to hear any quotes from any scriptures! How do you know what they are really about or why they are there? I think this is a serious question. It is what really lies at the heart of the issue I raised above. Yigal Arens UC Berkeley