cbostrum (04/06/83)
i was reading my bible last night (matthew) and noticed that it tells how amazingly popular and famous and wellknown etc etc jesus became. *if* this were indeed so, then we should expect a lot of reference to him in the secular historians of the day and the period shortly thereafter. on this we are all agreed. so what do we find? thanks to the wonderful josh mcDowell, who really wants to prove his case, we have a probably exhaustive list of all references. in the list submitted here, some of them have been pointed out to be xtian apologists, so they dont count for much. the others that i am familiar with are also nothing to write home about. the sueotonius (sp) that i could find were references to "christians" and not to jesus, and no one is doubting that due to the fanatical work of paul, et al, that there were **christians**. i imagine that many of them are similar. also, the josephus ones (there are two passing references) are commonly believed by biblical history experts today to be spurious xtian additions. the point is that if jesus really did have such an influence in his day, then there should be oodles of non controversial references to him. and there are not
hutch (04/18/83)
Oh good grief. THere are plenty of non controversial references to Jesus and to his popularity. There is an entire literature of things called "gonstic gospels" which attest to the popularity of a mystery-religion brand of Christianity. The New Testament and related books cannot be called controversial, at least in the sense I understood cbostrum to mean. They are probably the best resource of evidence, despite the fact that they are the work of Christians. A very good indicator of the popularity of Christianity is the CLEARLY DOCUMENTED adoption by the Pharisaic Jews (in synagogues, precursor to modern Rabbinic Judaism) around the year 70 AD of a ritual curse on the followers of Jesus of Nazareth, which was introduced in order to get them OUT of the synagogues so they would stop converting people there. mutter grumble poor shoddy scholarship gripe growl -Hutch
hutch (04/18/83)
In my previous letter I meant to say "Gnostic" rather than "Gonstic" Sorry, I'm typing as best I can. Hutch
mmc (04/29/83)
#R:watmath:-485600:harpo:24800002:000:2206
harpo!mmc Apr 29 10:40:00 1983
With reference to:
A very good indicator of the popularity of Christianity is the CLEARLY
DOCUMENTED adoption by the Pharisaic Jews (in synagogues, precursor to
modern Rabbinic Judaism) around the year 70 AD of a ritual curse on the
followers of Jesus of Nazareth, which was introduced in order to get
them OUT of the synagogues so they would stop converting people there.
mutter grumble poor shoddy scholarship gripe growl
***** harpo:net.religion / dadla-b!hutch / 3:11 pm Apr 18, 1983
I feel obliged to correct the impression left by the extract from the
note cited above. First-century Pharisaic Jewish religious writings
contain almost NO explicit references to Jesus or his followers.
The "ritual curse" in question does not mention Jesus or his followers
(called in Hebrew "notzrim", derived from Nazareth). In its original
version, it refers to sectarians (Heb.: minim) and slanderers (Heb.:
malshinim), who were seen as particular dangers to Jewish survival
(both literally and religiously).
"Minim" (a term which appears in contemporary Jewish legal literature
of the period) included in particular those who rejected the notion of
personal immortality, the divine source of the Torah, or the unity of
the deity, adopting rather a Gnostic position of dualism (yes, there
were Jewish non-Christian Gnostics at this period in which religious
syncretism was generally in vogue). Sectarianism was seen as a danger
to the survival of the Jewish religion.
The term "Malshinim" refers to Jews who betrayed fellow Jews to the
Roman authorities for maintaining and teaching Jewish ritual practice
and beliefs, aspects of which the Romans had outlawed (such as
circumcision, Sabbath observance, and studying Jewish law). Jewish
writings of the period report numerous instances of martyrdom by those
betrayed to the Roman authorities. Slanderers were seen as a danger to
the very lives of practicing Jews.
The so-called "curse" is actually a prayer for the disappearance of
wickedness and evil (identified primarily with the Roman Empire) from
the world, and is, in a slightly modified version, incorporated in the
daily Jewish liturgy.
Mark Chodrow (zeppo!mmc)