random (05/03/83)
I'm hoping this is making it out due to our news system being fouled here. We've been on and off for a week and a half (*again*) here on dadla. I noticed Yigal Arens (bless his heart) posted his ream-job on me again. Thanks, Yigal. I got it the first time. I've been afraid to post a reply lest the blasted computer gronks it. I've been told this will make it out. I also noticed Jeff Mayhew's Plunge II. Nice article, Jeff. This reply is for you, too. Yigal asked the best (although the most obnoxiously phrased) question I've seen in years. I asked it many times myself over the last several years. I wish more people would question those who claim the knowledge of God. And, yes there IS one. For that matter, I wish more Christians would question whether or not they are doing God's will. It would save a lot of time that is being waisted doing their own will. Before I tell you how I can have the unmitigated guts (or the foolishness, depending on your point of view) to claim to know God or His will, I want to comment on Yigal's reference to organizations, religious movements, and such vs. individual choice. Obviously, an organization is made up of individuals. All of us are indi- viduals (I am, anyway) and I tend to keep my comments and references away from groups (such as Jerry Falwell followers) and in reference to particular people (such as Jerry Falwell, himself). Comments and complaints about groups can get far too impersonal (and generally inaccurate) for my tastes. However, the difference in churches was brought up, so..... With churches, the difference is not so much in interpreting the same Bible and following the same God, but grinding out doctrine that supercedes the Bible and defines God to be less than or other than what He is. From there, people will shop until they find the church that has a doctrine palatable to them (whether it is true or not). Examples are how many church-goers go to church for the moral teachings and not to learn about God. Therefore, people know lots of morals but little about God. For many churches, the subject of God, or worse yet, Jesus, is far to controversial to teach in detail. These are the churches I grew up in. I didn't really care to hear moral teachings, though. I just wanted to know God (not an unusual desire) so I stopped going. It took until I was 22 years old before I heard the Gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ through a different church and under different circumstances. In the ranks of 'church-goers', many don't know if they're doing God's will. Some may claim to be doing God's will due to their leaders telling them that they are. Jim Jones' Koolaid party is a good, although radical, example. He told his followers God wanted them to die for Him, so they committed suicide and murder in the name of God. Wonderful. Kinda reminds me of the Crusades. Now for Yigal's comment: ********************** How *dare* he (and he isn't alone in this) speak so casually about what god wants, what god's intentions are, what god is or isn't going to do, etc. What on earth gives Randall the notion that he has even the slightest idea of what (if anything) is behind his god's actions?! And I don't want to hear any quotes from any scriptures! How do you know what they are really about or why they are there? ********************** Oh, beautiful. There was nothing casual in my article. My statements were made on my knowledge of the Bible (which Yigal doesn't seem to accept), also on how other Christians tell me of their knowledge of God (but, of course, they could be lying or dreaming), and finally on my own, personal, first-hand knowledge of God (but, then again, who am I). I take none of those casually or my sharing of this information as trivial. As far as scripture goes (I refer only to the Bible), The Bible says what it is about and why it is here. To assume or imply anything else is guessing. What it is 'really' about is evident to any reader who starts at the beginning in Genesis where it says 'In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth'. It starts 'in the beginning', initially revealing God, and what He was doing. Revelations is the last book that tells, as one might expect, the end. In between is a running commentary on various peoples struggles to follow and obey God (and sometimes the results of *not* obeying God) and God's power in those folks lives. It was written about God by people under God's hand and is as infallible as God is. It is here to be READ. But, since Yigal doesn't want me to quote scripture..... Other Christians tell me of their knowledge of God and what He is doing with them. If I can see God working, I have no problem believing. He's fixed marriages, healed people, repaired businesses, and fixed many peoples emotional problems. The latter is, in my opinion, one of the most common problem with this country. I've known people in mental wards that Jesus has healed who would still be in those institutions had He not shown His love to them. If you don't believe it, that's your choice. But when God uses His power like that, it shows me that God not only exists (and is not passive) but *really does love us*. My own knowledge of God's existence started with other Christians that God had blessed. I noticed the changes I'd seen in friends and relatives that I grew up with that asked and accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord. I notice the deep emotional problems that had hung them up for years being cured and removed without any obvious means or techniques. And the changes were faster than I had ever heard of any psychological or psychiatric help providing. One person I know has been classified by doctors as mentally and emotionally incurable (the results of a genetic foul-up plus LSD) that has been healed by Jesus. I just watched as God revealed Himself to me through other Christians. I then started asking Jesus for more proof and reason to have faith in Him and He kept on showing me more blessings, miracles, and such. He didn't force the issue of *my* acceptance. He made it clear that He could wait until I was sure. Also, He made it clear that He wouldn't wait forever and I would benefit more if I made up my mind soon. As a result, on April 25, 1980 (yes, I wrote it down), alone, in my apartment here in Beaverton, I asked Jesus to be *my* Savior and Lord. I sometimes hear the phrase 'the Christian experience' referring to a Christian experiencing God in his life. This is the ONLY reason to be a Christian. The morality is a result of God changing one's values. But, morality is NOT Chris- tianity. Morality is a by-product. Not to put down the importance of living as God wants us to. It's just too easy to condemn others for being 'immoral'. I know I try to do what's right, but I'm far from perfect. My experience of God working on me and in my life includes delivering me from smoking (go ahead, don't believe it), repairing my relationship with my parents (I was a somewhat battered child), bringing me together with other Christians (I call them brothers and sisters) I can trust in and be *truly* friends with, and, far beyond these, He sent His presence (the Holy Spirit) into me so I can know His will as He reveals it to me. There's more, too. If you want to hear about it, send mail. The Bible is simply God's explanation of who He is, who *we* are, and what to expect in a 'Christian experience' when we follow Jesus Christ. Since I've been a Christian, God has opened my understanding of the Bible far beyond my former ability. I've NEVER found anything in the Bible that has been promised by God to me that hasn't been delivered or is in process. God does test my faith in Him rather often, but He doesn't lie. People have tried to make science a religion in some ways. There's been many articles and comments about this. But, occasionally God runs right by science to perform the impossible on those He loves to show He IS God, He DOES love us, and He IS bigger that any other 'religion' or 'god' that we have made (in our own image or otherwise). As a result, I let Jesus be my Lord and became a Christian because it WORKS. And that's how I can *dare* have the knowledge of what's behind God's actions. The Bible IS true. Jesus Lives. Randall Elliott Tektronix, Inc. Beaverton, Ore. (503) 629-1044 or tektronix!tekmdp!dadla!dadla-b!random
tim (05/12/83)
Relay-Version:version B 2.10 gamma 4/3/83; site mhuxt.UUCP Message-ID:<5208@unc.UUCP> Date:Wed, 11-May-83 17:46:28 EDT Ah, sorry, Randall, but there are more Hindus and Buddhists than Christians and Jews. Your god is not, as you claim, "the biggest", and in this state- ment you only betray the smallness and lack of relation to reality of your world. Unless, of course, you only count Americans and Europeans as "people"... As for your claims of belief because of the miraculous effects you've attributed to Jesus -- any god can make similar claims. The reason I can't believe in yours is because he calls all the other gods liars, claiming to be the most powerful and the most knowing, all without any evidence beyond the writings of devotees. What would you think of a man who did that? And if God must be judged by different standards, then in what sense is he "good"? Tim Maroney