[net.religion] Born Again

johnr@tekmdp.UUCP (06/11/83)

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How can one claim to be a Christian, and in the same sentance deny being
born again,  after all, Christ said " You must be born again ".
			Ken Cochran    hou5d!kwmc

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I did not see the original article the above quote is a reply to.
I know not what others may think, but I can easily answer for myself.

I am a Christian and I have NOT been born again.  Christ said to
Nicodemus:

      ...Except a man be born again, he cannot see the
      kingdom of God.  Jn 3:3

and

      ...Ye must be born again.  Jn 3:7

Christ also said:

      That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is
      born of the Spirit is spirit.  Jn 3:6

and

      The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
      thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it
      goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.  Jn 3:8

I am still flesh, not spirit.  I am not invisible.  I have been
begotten of God, but I will not be born again until the resurrection.

John Rutis

hutch@dadla-b.UUCP (06/12/83)

Lest anyone be fooled, John Rutis is not a "mainline" Christian.  He
does not speak for the majority of Christians.  His views, while
interesting, should not be used as representative of the "Christian" position
any more than the views of the Mormon church should be viewed as such.

S
^typo.

Hutch

hutch@dadla-b.UUCP (06/15/83)

John Rutis has asked me to respond directly to his point of scripture.
John, I apologise if it seems I am trying to discredit you, or made it
look as if you were trying to put one over on everyone.  It would become
enormously tedious for everyone if we all tried to make it clear that
we followed a particular subset of belief.  For the record, I am a rather
"vanilla" variety of Christian.  I best fit into the Evangelistic category,
and I accept most of the doctrinal positions of the Episcopal church as
being close to what I believe or have learned.
John, I know that you are affiliated with a group reportedly based in
California, which is led by a charismatic preacher (not explicitly a
Charismatic, which is a different subset) whose doctrines are rather at
odds in places with some of the traditional positions.  The "born again"
doctrine is one of these.

To quote more thoroughly from John chapter 3 verses 1-9 (NASB)

	Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus,
	a ruler of the Jews;  this man came to Him by night, and
	said to Him,
	"Rabbi, we know that You have come from God <as> a teacher;
	 for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is
	 with him."
	Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to
	you, unless one is born again (note alt trans: "from above")
	he cannot see the kingdom of God."
	Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old?
	"He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be
	 born, can he?"
	Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born
	of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
	"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born
	 of the Spirit is spirit.
	"Do not marvel that I say to you, 'You must be born again.'
	"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but
	 do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is
	 every one who is born of the Spirit."
	Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"

Rather than continuing farther (the context continues for several more
paragraphs) I will explain what I believe this says and why that is in
contradiction with John Rutis' doctrine.

	Background: This is at the time of the Passover, Jesus having just
	driven the money changers from the Temple grounds.  Nicodemus was
	a member of the Sanhedrin, the ruling religious council that ran
	things in Israel, a sort of "second government" that kept a very
	precarious balance with the "nobles" who were the legacy of the
	Alexandrian empire, and Pilate, the Roman governor of the region.
	Several reasons are proposed for why Nicodemus came at night.
	The one I like best (makes the most sense) was that Nicodemus was
	very busy man and had to do his personal business on his own time.

	Jesus answers Nicodemus' introductory statement, then begins a
	discussion of the salvation He is there to institute (which is
	continued in the paragraphs I didn't copy).  The forst thing he
	says is that one must be reborn, to see the Kingdom.  Note that
	the Kingdom of God is, in Jewish tradition, a very real thing that
	is expected to be instituted by the Conquering Messiah, who is
	expected to lead the Jews in battle to take over the world.
	When Nicodemus' attention is firmly hooked, and he has asked for
	clarification, Jesus explains further:  "unless one is born of
	water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
	The implication is clear.  Spiritual birth is required in order
	to see the Kingdom.  Nothing is said about dying first, and in
	fact, baptism is referred to.  The distinction is then made
	between birth of body and birth of spirit.

So far, clear assertion that spiritual rebirth is required to see the Kingdom,
but nothing to imply that one must die bodily first.  Implication seems to
be that flesh and spirit must BOTH be born.

Nothing at all in 1 Cor 15 seems to support your assertion that the body 
has to die before the spirit can be born again, especially verses 49 and 50.

Paul says, "And just as we have born the image of the earthy, we shall
(alt from other mss "let us also") also bear the image of the heavenly"

Referring to the bodies of the "old" and "new" "Adam", the new Adam being
of course Jesus.

It does imply, obviously, that when the Kingdom of God does come, that
the FLESH which houses the reborn spirit will be changed from the mortal
ato the immkortal.

For your further edification, I suggest 1 Corinthians 3:16,

	"Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and
	 <that> the Spirit of God dwells in you?"

This seems to support the reborn spirit during life, unless you want to
say that the Spirit of God dwelling in one has no relation to the spiritual
rebirth which Jesus described, or that Paul was speaking to those who had
died bodily.

Steve Hutchison
Tektronix Logic Analyzers