hutch@dadla-b.UUCP (06/09/83)
Mark Twain is hardly a believable source for information about the Christian beliefs about Heaven, Tim. In fact, when he was being sarcastic (most of the time) he tended to present anything at all in the most acidic fashion, which some folks imagine is funny. I used to think so too, until I learned how much pain an effective sarcasm can unleash on another person. Hence my much toned down and mellowed out approach. Anyway, to answer your semi-rhetorical question: The understanding I have gotten from my own biblical studies is that a Christian can be said to be a miserable creature of two "selves", one alive in Christ, the other dying of its own festering poisons. The goal of the Christian in life is to become more and more the living self, while becoming less and less the dying self. Therefore, when the "old" self is sloughed off, the identity and "free will" remain, newly freed of the dead corpse of the old self. As for "free will," well, I have a different concept of that than many folks do. It looks to me as if the man (generic) who is a slave cannot be said to be free willed, rather having to be bound to the will of his master. If my master were the habits of rebelliousness and self-destruction (sin, in interpretation) then I would certainly not have free will. If my master were a benign and loving master who chose to free me from bondage in every way (as I believe God does) then I might be said to have free will. But as a slave to sin, I cannot even choose to be freed from that master. I have to be purchased to be made free. I am given the choice then of accepting the gift of a real self, the right to really choose. Hutch
tim@unc.UUCP (06/11/83)
More on Christians and voluntary slavery. Mark Twain is hardly a believable source for information about the Christian beliefs about Heaven, Tim. In fact, when he was being sarcastic (most of the time) he tended to present anything at all in the most acidic fashion, which some folks imagine is funny. I used to think so too, until I learned how much pain an effective sarcasm can unleash on another person. Hence my much toned down and mellowed out approach. Well, I'm glad you're so much more mature than I am. Think of it, me thinking that Mark Twain was a great satiric wit! I am proud to have been set straight by such a man as yourself. Now I will read only the Bible and the collected writings of Norman Vincent Peale, and love it. In any case, I have found that someone who is outside of an activity can often present a clearer picture of the activity than a person inside. This is certainly not a general rule -- usually, it is the other way around -- but neither is it as rare as you suggest. This is particularly true in a case like Christianity, in which there are major precepts which must NEVER be questioned by a believer under any circumstances. No believer can or will point out these inconsistencies, and thus it falls to the outside observer to do so. The understanding I have gotten from my own biblical studies is that a Christian can be said to be a miserable creature of two "selves", one alive in Christ, the other dying of its own festering poisons. The goal of the Christian in life is to become more and more the living self, while becoming less and less the dying self. Therefore, when the "old" self is sloughed off, the identity and "free will" remain, newly freed of the dead corpse of the old self. Interesting. Does this mean anything, or is it some ritual formula you are presenting? What is this saying, and what are its moral implications in day-to-day life? It seems utterly devoid of practical value. As for "free will," well, I have a different concept of that than many folks do. It looks to me as if the man (generic) who is a slave cannot be said to be free willed, rather having to be bound to the will of his master. If my master were the habits of rebelliousness and self-destruction (sin, in interpretation) then I would certainly not have free will. If my master were a benign and loving master who chose to free me from bondage in every way (as I believe God does) then I might be said to have free will. But as a slave to sin, I cannot even choose to be freed from that master. I have to be purchased to be made free. I am given the choice then of accepting the gift of a real self, the right to really choose. You are saying that freedom is just another kind of slavery. Perhaps it is that way to you; it is not so to me. Why should I accept the chains when I have become so fond of my freedom? And why should I trust any man who has done such a thing, since he is obviously in the employ of the acquisitive Slave-God? Never forget that it is your Master who made you, and that he made you knowing you would have to don the shackles or be thrown into the Pit. Why are his motives beyond reproach if, as you claim, he is a real, sentient being? His greater power? Does might make right in your cosmos? We have only his own word of his good intentions, and everywhere around us is evidence of his corruption. Tim Maroney
silver@csu-cs.UUCP (06/15/83)
What if you get what you expect, when you die?? Well, what if I expect reincarnation??