trb@floyd.UUCP (06/27/83)
I just read a netnews item by tektronix!cliffm (Cliff Morgan) about a Dr. Eby whose head was busted open in a fall, he was drained of all his blood but somehow managed to refill his own circulatory system and live a normal life. I have nothing to say about that, but Cliff mentions that Dr. Eby took a trip to "the Holy Land." Which Holy Land do you mean, Cliff? Israel, pray tell? Then how come you don't call it Israel? Look at any modern map. Look at your bible. Ask the government of the country. The country is called Israel. To refrain from calling the country Israel is a serious affront to Jews. For some strange reason, Israel is called "the Holy Land" quite often by the Cristian mass media, I don't know why. Andy Tannenbaum Bell Labs Whippany, NJ (201) 386-6491
larry@grkermit.UUCP (Larry Kolodney) (06/28/83)
From Andy Tennenbaum: To refrain from calling the country Israel is a serious affront to Jews. For some strange reason, Israel is called "the Holy Land" quite often by the Cristian mass media, I don't know why. Why is it offensive, and why is it more offensive than saying that Jesus is the messiah and that we have it all wrong? -- Larry Kolodney (USENET) decvax!genrad!grkermit!larry allegra!linus!genrad!grkermit!larry harpo!eagle!mit-vax!grkermit!larry (ARPA) rms.g.lkk@mit-ai
trb@floyd.UUCP (06/28/83)
In response to my comment about people (usually the Christian mass
media) who call Israel "the Holy Land" rather than Israel, Larry
Kolodney (grkermit!larry) asks:
Why is it offensive, and why is it more offensive than saying
that Jesus is the messiah and that we have it all wrong?
To answer the relevant question ("Why is it offensive?"), it is
offensive because the country has a name, and it naturally wants to be
called by that name, and to not call it by that name is a show of
disrespect. If you always addressed me as "the hacker who works at BTL
Whippany," when I wanted to be called "Andy," I would be offended, and
I would take it as a display of your disrespect.
Larry, I don't understand what relevance your question about Jesus and
the messiah has to this discussion at all. If you are asking about the
offensiveness of you believing in Jesus as the messiah, yes, I would
find it offensive if those beliefs were forced upon me, but I don't
find it offensive that you believe in them. Again, I don't see the
relevance of that to this discussion.
I didn't mean to offend anyone by using the spelling "Cristian" in my
first note, it was an honest phonetic mispelling.
Also, Larry, the proper spelling of my last name is not Tennenbaum,
it's Tannenbaum (was that in retaliation?)
Andy Tannenbaum Bell Labs Whippany, NJ (201) 386-6491laura@utcsstat.UUCP (06/29/83)
It is objectionable in that real people have fought and died to make the country of Israel. Calling it "The Holy Land" seems to deny that Israel is a real political state. How many Americans would like their country to be referred to as "British North-America"? laura creighton utzoo!utcsstat!laura
hutch@dadla-b.UUCP (06/29/83)
Andy -
A possible reply to why people (not just Christians) call Israel the
Holy Land . . .
Israel IS a Holy Land to at least three of the world's major religions.
And it did not really exist as a country until this century.
I imagine that what we have is the same kind of linguistic habit that
the sexist-language conflagration has been about.
Hutchbentson@csu-cs.UUCP (06/29/83)
Andy, now that you've told us what you wish to be called, does that change what you are? To many, Israel is the name of a nation, the Holy Land is where that nation is located. Looked at in this respect, is the insult removed? or increased? comments?.... Randy Bentson csu-cs!bentson Colo State U - Comp Sci
trb@floyd.UUCP (06/30/83)
Randy, you ask an interesting question: Andy, now that you've told us what you wish to be called, does that change what you are? To many, Israel is the name of a nation, the Holy Land is where that nation is located. Looked at in this respect, is the insult removed? or increased? comments?.... I'm sure you've heard the well-worn adages about what's in a name. Let's say some person calls me a nigger-lover. Does that reflect on me or on the person who called me that name? It's a simple matter of one person treating another with disrespect, and it should be clear who gets cast in a bad light. Similarly, some people refuse to call Israel by the proper name which it prefers. To repeat a conclusion, It's a simple matter of one person treating a country with disrespect, and it should be clear who gets cast in a bad light. Just because I suggest that people call Israel by its proper name, it is not necessarily exclusively for my benefit. Andy Tannenbaum Bell Labs Whippany, NJ (201) 386-6491
bch@unc.UUCP (07/01/83)
Andy has asserted that the term "Holy Land" describes an area identical to enclosed by the modern state of Israel. Is this true? It seems to me that the geography of the Bible extends somewhat outside the boundaries of the state of Israel, although most of the major events did take place inside what is now Israel. Nevertheless, the area is holy to many faiths (Jews, Christians, Moslems) no matter who is custodian of it at present. It seems unfortunate that it is not open to pilgrimages by all who wish to go, given its importance in Western and Middle-Eastern culture. Not really wanting to take sides in this issue, Byron Howes UNC - Chapel Hill
govern@houxf.UUCP (07/01/83)
One of the reasons that "fundamentalists" and others refer to Israel and the surrouding area as "The Holy Land" is a matter of tradition in language. I'm not a "Fundy" in the cultural sense, although much of my theology is similar, but I have noticed that there is a tendency, especially among preachers, and among rural people, to talk the way their fathers and grandfathers did. Some of this may be just reactionary; some of it is from continual exposure to written tradition and to oral tradition, especially in preaching style. Some of it just comes from only being exposed to people like themselves. In any case, Palestine has been commonly called "The Holy Land" for quite a while, before the founding of the modern state of Israel*. Some people's language hasn't caught up with it -- even though many people who use that phrase look at Israel's existence as fulfilled prophecy, and evidence for their own theology (Let's not get into that one.. it's a *long* discussion.) Also, the phrase "Holy Land" includes areas of Palestine that (until the 6-day War) were not part of the state of Israel; in particular parts of Jerusalem, and the Sinai area which has changed ownership several times even after that war. It also causes fewer problems around people who think the the Arabs have some claim to Palestine. Bill Stewart (I myself tend to call Israel "Israel".)
ellis@flairvax.UUCP (07/02/83)
Andy - I don't know what TV inspired moment caused you to be disturbed because a place central to islamic, jewish & christian spirituality was accurately described as 'Holy Land'. Maybe you should start plugging your mind into a different medium. - Michael
syko@hou2b.UUCP (07/03/83)
>From a previous "Holyland article:"
It seems unfortunate that it is not open to pilgrimages
by all who wish to go, given its importance in Western
and Middle-Eastern culture.
Byron Howes
UNC - Chapel Hill
Holy places in Israel are open to people of all faiths (unlike the
the way East Jerusalem was under Jordanian rule).
Danny Sykora
hou2b!sykosyko@hou2b.UUCP (07/04/83)
The holy places under Israeli sovereignty are open to people of all faiths (unlike the way it was under Jordanian rule). Danny Sykora hou2b!syko
dave@utcsrgv.UUCP (Dave Sherman) (07/07/83)
To reiterate Danny Sykora's point: not only are all holy places under Israeli sovereignty open to those of all faiths, but Ma'arot Hamachpelah, where Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca and Leah are buried is a holy site to both Moslems (because of Abraham) and Jews. There are times of the day when Jewish visitors are not allowed in, because Moslems are praying there. And this is under Israeli sovereignty. In contrast, when Jordan was in control of the "West Bank" (what? you don't remember the cries for a Palestinian state on the West Bank then? I wonder why?), Jews were not allowed to go to their holy sites, including the Western Wall (Cotel Hamaaravi) in Jerusalem. And Jewish synagogues, yeshivahs and cemetaries in the Old City were systematically destroyed by the Jordanians. I think history makes it clear who has the better moral right to control of the land. Dave Sherman Toronto