[net.religion] Paradise vs. Resurrection

lew@ihuxr.UUCP (06/10/83)

Cliff Morgan cited the reported experience of a Dr. Richard Ely who
"visited Paradise" during a period of "clinical death". Although, this
would seem to support the notion of "going to heaven" after dying,
doesn't it contradict the doctrine of the Resurrection as expounded
by Paul in the New Testament?

I remember that Garner Ted Armstrong was very strong on this point.
Namely that one didn't go to heaven upon dying, but that the saved
would remain dead until the Resurrection. What I have read in
I Corinthians supports this view.

	Lew Mammel, Jr. ihuxr!lew

jdj55611@ihuxk.UUCP (06/13/83)

>>>Cliff Morgan cited the reported experience of a Dr. Richard Ely who
>>>"visited Paradise" during a period of "clinical death". Although, this
>>>would seem to support the notion of "going to heaven" after dying,
>>>doesn't it contradict the doctrine of the Resurrection as expounded
>>>by Paul in the New Testament?


I also saw the interview of Dr. Ely on the 700 club and
found it very interesting. As I remember Dr. Ely didn't
say that he went to heaven, rather, he described his
experience as a 'holding tank where he would be taught
how to be a king and a priest.'
This idea can be gleaned from the New Testament in the
following manner.

If you go to Luke 23:39-43 you will find a conversation between
Christ and the two thieves while they were awaiting death on the
cross. The first one tempts Christ to save Himself.
The first is reprimanded by the second and then the second
says, "...remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."
The key verse is 43:

   "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today
    thou shalt be with me in paradise."

I have heard this verse quoted numerous times as an indication
of how easy it is to be saved. According to this passage, both
Jesus and the thief would be in the same place after they died;
a place called paradise. But, is this paradise with God in 
Heaven? Perhaps not. The next event is the appearance of Christ
to Mary in the Garden found in John 20. The importent verse is
19 with the following:

   "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended
    to my Father..."

There is more to the verse but this is the point. Here is Christ
three days after he told the thief they would be in paradise
together and Christ still has not gone to heaven and God!
Furthermore, it was not until after Christ was resurrected
did he then ascend into Heaven.

So where did Christ go and the thief also? They went to a
place called paradise but is not heaven. The description
given by Dr. Ely would apply: a holding tank until the
resurrection. In 1 Peter 3:18-20 is a description of a
portion of this place as follows:

    "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just
     for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being
     put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit;
     By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in
     prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the
     longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while
     the ark was  a preparing..."

In the next chapter of 1 Peter, the further explanation of
what was happening is given in verse 6:

     "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them
      that are dead, that they might be judged according to 
      men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

So Christ was preaching the gospel to  the dead in paradise
where they can await the judgment and resurrection.
The thief in paradise along with all others who haved lived on
this earth and died have a chance to hear the gospel and accept it.

There is much more I could say about this but I will just
summarize. The points are:

    - There is a  place between earthlife and heaven where
      the dead go to prepare for eternity. Those who did
      not have a chance can there hear and accept the gospel.

    - Christ did not go directly to heaven from the cross
      but only AFTER his resurrection.

    - The thief was not automatically saved but thereafter
      received the message of the gospel.

                 Joe Jensen
                 BTL Naperville Il.

cng@burdvax.UUCP (06/13/83)

The idea of "going to heaven" does not contradict Paul's teaching.
In Paul's letters he makes it clear that death (for the Christian)
ushers one into the presence of Christ.  Christ's words to the thief
on the cross contained a similar thought.

However, the notion that one can experience "clinical death" and preview
the afterlife is foreign to orthodox Christian thinking.  The Bible teaches
that after death comes judgement. Death and judgement are closely related
with the one following the other (though not immediately).  This does not
allow for the position of some that one can experience the afterlife
simply because they are "pronounced dead" by a doctor.

Whatever their experience is, it is not that of Christ in His glory.

boswell@hogpc.UUCP (06/15/83)

	I do not want to sound as if I'am attacking anybody but I would
like to give a reply to the Dr. Ely situation.

	Lew Mammel (I hope the spelling is correct) made a statement where
he thought the dead didn't rise until the second coming. He's correct!!
I hear alot of what happens to people at death for, example the tunnel
with a bright light at the end, and this is all interesting, but ths Bible
is clear on the state of the dead. 
	First let's see what makes a living soul. Genesis 2:7 says God took
the dust and breathed into it the Breath of Life; and man became a living
soul. Notice you need both to make a living being. Now go to Ecclesiastes
12:7 and we see the dust returns and the spirit (our breath) goes back to
God. Remember it took both to make a living soul. therefore when they seperate
you no longer have a living soul but instead dust and air. In Genesis 3:19
the Lord also stated that man would return to the dust.
	Now turn to Job 14:10-12,21. We see in these verses that man does not
rise till the heavens (atmosphere in this case) are no more. Now we ask when
is the heavens going to pass away? II Peter 3:10 tells us at the Lord's coming
the heavens will pass away with a great noise. You may ask why is the atmos-
phere destroyed? I ask why shouldn't He destroy it to remove all the polution
so His redeemed can have some nice fresh air for a change?
	Now what are the dead thinking about? NOTHING!! Psalms 146:3,4 says
in the King James version that your thoughts perish at death. The New Inter-
national version says don't put your trust in MORTAL man, when his spirit
(breath) departs he returns to dust and his plans come to nothing. Now what
happened to David who wrote this Psalms. Let's turn to Acts 2:29-34. Verse
34 says David has not ascended to Heaven. If you read Acts 13:36 it says
David fell asleep (died) and saw corruption (decay). Verse 37 talks of
Christ who saw no decay or corruption. If you have problems seeing where
being asleep = death then turn to Psalms 13:3, John 11:11-14, I Corin.15:6
Daniel 12:2, Acts 7:60.
	Along with Mr. Mammel's verse in I Corinthians we have another 
verse in I Thessalonians 4:13-18 which talks of the dead rising up at
the second coming also.
	 These next two verses Isaiah 38:18,19 and Psalms 115:17 state that the
dead do not praise the Lord. Also Psalms 6:5 says "In death ther is no remem-
brance of thee" or in the New International version "No one remembers you 
when he is dead"!! In Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 " the dead know not any thing, neither
have they any more a reward;for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their
love, and their hatred and their envy, is now perished;". Notice it says
the dead know not any thing which says simply there is no knowledge or
intelligence in the grave. It also says the memory of them is forgotten which
says they didn't remember anything either, which goes along with the verses
which say the thoughts perish. In light of ALL these texts how can we say
that we go to the grave and then get a second chance or receive more in
the way of teachings when all these verses say we have no intelligence in
the grave, our thoughts perish, we have no memory. Because Peter speaks of
spirits in prison (I PeTer 3:18-20) and Christ visiting them I don't know
if this should be taken literally or not, but I will study some literature
I'am waiting on about this verse and get back with what I find. We must
remember we serve an Intelligent God and where one verse seems to contradict
the others then our interpretation is at fault. If I never understand this
verse I'll still say nothing happens during death except decay because of all
these many other verses which state otherwise. We can find many verses in the
Bible which seem to contradict the rest of what it has to say of a subject,
but like I said before if that's the way we read the verse then we need to
re-read the verse to find it's true meaning. The Bible is inspired from an
Intelligent God therefore we should believe there should be no contradictions.
	We can take a verse for example that says we will burn with eternal
fire. I ask is our God of Love going to let people burn forever screeming
and yelling for the righteous to hear for eternity? Let's find out!
	Ezekiel 18:4,20,24 says that the soul that sins it shall die. Now
go to Psalms 92:7 and we see that the wicked will be destroyed forever.
In John 3:16 says whoever believes will NOT PERISH but have ETERNAL LIFE.
Romans 2:7 says those seeking Glory, Honor, Immortality - God GIVES ETERNAL
LIFE. In Romans 6:23 we see the wages of sn is DEATH, but the gift of God
is ETERNAL LIFE. Now all die so we can see plainly that this refers to another
death - the second death, when god destroys the wicked. In II Thessalonians
1:9 we see that the wicked will receive EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION. In James 1:5
we see where evil desires lead to sin which leads to death. In I John 5:12
it says those who have Jesus have ETERNAL LIFE , those without Him Do NOT
HAVE eternal life. Well now what does the Bible mean when it says we will
burn with an everlasting fire? Let's look at some things that already
experienced ETERNAL FIRE. Jude verse 7 says SODOM and GOMORRAH serve as an
example to those who suffer ETERNAL FIRE. Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning
today? II Peter 2:6 says they are burned to ashes. As a matter of fact, most 
scholars will tell you they are under the DEAD SEA. Looks like they're cooled
off pretty good. Malachi 4:1-3 tells us the wicked will be burned up root and
branch and they will be ashes under our feet!!! If I may side track, notice
it says root and branch. Jesus is our root and we our the branches. Correct?
Let's go to the otherside of the fence and say of the wicked that Satan is 
the root and the wicked our his branches. In this case Satan will die and
be burned up also. The source of all our problems will be gone!!!! If
you need another proof verse look at Revelation 20:14 and you will see
it says that the lake of fire is the second death!!! I serve a God of LOVE
that wants all to be with Him. Ezekiel 18:23 will show you He takes no 
pleasure in the death of the wicked. He doesn't want people burning forever
just like we don't want it. God hates sin for it cost Him the life of Jesus
His Son. Every time we sin God remembers back to Calvary and sees Christ
crucified again. Read Hebrews 6:6. Sin is not a pretty sight in His eyes.
He wants it to end just like us.
	I hope no one is offended by what I wrote. I try to put in a lot of
texts so you can check for yourself and remove any doubt.

Peace To All
Stephen R. Boswell

jdj55611@ihuxk.UUCP (06/16/83)

In a recent article S. Boswell gave some views on the state of the dead;
some of which I would like to offer a different scriptural view.

>>we see where evil desires lead to sin which leads to death. In I John 5:12
>>it says those who have Jesus have ETERNAL LIFE , those without Him Do NOT
>>HAVE eternal life.

I think it is importent here to differentiate between two principles;
eternal life and immortality. As cited above, eternal life is conditional
on our faith in God and our acceptance of the gospel. Immortality, on
the other hand is applicable to all as found in 1 Cor. 15:21-22:

	"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection
	 of the dead.
	 For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made
	 alive."

Through the resurrection of Christ, everyone will experience the state
of afterlife "life." This does not take exception for the wicked for
they also will receive this gift of immortality but will not partake
of eternal life with Christ.

As to our status when we leave this life, S. Boswell refered to 
Ecclesiastes and then made the statement:

>> Notice it says
>> the dead know not any thing which says simply there is no knowledge or
>> intelligence in the grave. It also says the memory of them is forgotten which
>> says they didn't remember anything either, which goes along with the verses
>> which say the thoughts perish. In light of ALL these texts how can we say
>> that we go to the grave and then get a second chance or receive more in
>> the way of teachings when all these verses say we have no intelligence in
>> the grave, our thoughts perish, we have no memory.

You can draw your own conclusion from the scripture in Ecc., but I think
it is talking about our attitude toward the dead and the end of
their ablilty to operate in our sphere. I think this is especially true
when you consider Christs teaching of the state of the dead in Luke 16.
This is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. I won't repeat it here
but it describes the paradise and hell where all involved are VERY
cognizant of their surroundings and their prior earthlife.

There is more information I will throw in here as an addendum to an 
article I submitted earlier. In that article I dicussed the state of
the dead and how there is a place after death seperate from heaven
where we all go and those who didn't get a chance to hear the gospel
can receive it there ( 1 Peter 4:6).  If some one fits this category
of never having heard of Christ in his life and accepts him in 
paradise, he has to be baptised before he can enter the kingdom of
heaven.  This is accomplished in proxy as indicated by 1 Cor. 15:29:

	"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead,
	 is the dead rise not al all? why are they then baptized
	 for the dead?"

Peter used this as an argument for resurrection refering to a 
practice which is largely inheard of in todays churches but it
is an interesting concept.

I think there is an equal amount of scriptural backing to the
views I described above. The main thing to me is that the
intellligence that I gain in this life will rise with me in
the resurrection. This is more appealing to me than to have
my memory obliterated.

				J. D. Jensen
				BTL Naperville Il.
				ihuxk!jdj55611
but the rich man knew enough to be concerned about his brothers who were
still alive.

boswell@hogpc.UUCP (07/08/83)

************************************************************************
I put this article out before but received no response. In case it got
lost here it is again. If you saw it before then I apologize for the
repeat
************************************************************************

	I appologize for the length of this article but I had a lot to 
clear up. I do not want anybody to think this is a flame or I am cutting
down anybody's belief. I am just taking opportunity to discuss what I
feel the Bible has to say on a subject.
	This article is in reference to a discussion on what happens at
death. Mr. J. Jensen wrote an article in which he says that you go to
a place called paradise. This is based on Luke 23:39-43, I Peter 3:18-20,
and I Peter 4:6. He wrote since Christ said "today you will be with me in
paradise" and yet three days later said he wsn't ascended to His Father
that there is a intermedient place called paradise and thinks I Peter 3:18-20
tells of Christ's visit there. I wrote an article awhile back of which I will
summarize and also said I would write a second article as soon as I read 
some literature on these verses.

Here is my summary: (so you will know what's going on)
Gen 2:7	dust + breath = LIVING soul ( takes both, not one or the other)
Ecclesiastes 12:7 dust goes to earth, breath leaves, therefore you no longer
		have a living soul
Gen 3:19 man returns to dust at death
Job 14:10-12,21 man doesn't rise after death till heavens (atmosphere) pass away
II Peter 3:10 heavens (atmosphere) pass away at Christ's coming
Psalms 146:3,4 thoughts perish at death
Acts 2:29-34, 13:36 David has not yet ascended to heaven
I Thessalonians 4:13-18 dead IN CHRIST (christians) rising at Christ's return
Isaiah 38:18,19; Psalms 115:17 dead DO NOT praise the Lord
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 dead know nothing, memory is gone (till resurrection)

I also wrote on Eternal Life and quoted several verses including I John5:12
which says those in Jesus (christians) have Eternal Life, Those without Him
do not.
	In reply to this Mr. Jensen wrote:
>I think it is important here to differentiate between two principles;
>eternal life and immortality. As cited above, eternal life is conditional
>on our faith in God and our acceptance of the gospel. Immortality, on
>the other hand is applicable to all as found in I Cor.15:21-22:

Let me give some scripture:
Psalms 92:7 wicked destroyed forever
John 3:16 believers receive eternal life instead of perishing
Romans 2:7 those seeking imortality receive eternal life - if we already 
	have immortality why are we seeking it?
II Thessalonians 1:9 wicked receive everlasting destruction
Jude 7 Sodom and Gomorrah suffered eternal fire
II Peter 2:6 Sodom and Gomorrah are burned to ashes
(as a matter of fact the dead sea covers them)
Malachi 4:1-3 wicked will burn up and be ashes under our feet
Revelation 20:14 hell is the second death
Revelation 21:8 hell is the second death
As can be seen it looks like the wicked will not be immortalas a matter of
fact the bible says in I Timothy 1:17 that God is immortal. You'll never
find a passage which says man is. In Romans 2:7 it says we should be
seeking immortality so we can receive eternal life!! If we already have 
immortality why should we be seeking it?

On with I Cor. 15:21-22
Do you believe in the harmony of the gospels? For example you can read the
parable of the talents in Matt. 25:14-30 and also in Luke 19:12-27.
If you read both together you get a better insight. One verse may give a
little more on the subject then another. The same goes for I Cor. 15:21-22.
If you read it alone verse 22 sys "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ
shall all be made alive." Now read verse 23 " But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterwards they THAT ARE CHRIST"S (christians) AT
HIS COMING (second coming)."!!! notice the all in verse 21 is narrowed down
to those who are in Christ - Christians, and His coming - second coming. 
Therefore the righteous are raised at His coming. I must show you proof, but
first I Cor. 15:52 says "the dead shall be raised" it doesn't say whether 
it's the righteous or the wicked. Now lets see how the harmony of the gospels
can be applied here. I Thessalonians 4:13-18 especially verse 16 says the 
dead IN CHRIST shall rise first. Verse 17 says we who are still alive shall
rise or be caught up next. So we see I Cor. says the dead rise. I Thess. says
a little more and narrows the dead to only those who are dead IN CHRIST - in
other words passed away christians!!. This should be plain. Now for the
proof I promised that only the righteous rise at His second coming. In
Revelation 20:4-6 we see the verse telling us who have part in the first
resurrection will be in Heaven with Jesus. The rest of the dead (wicked since
the righteous are in heaven) rose not until the 1000 years are over. The 
first resurrection mentioned in verse 5 should be clear to refer to the
resurrection of the righteous. How clear do you want it? If you need more
then read verses 13-15 where it says death and hell(hell>hades>grave see margin)
gave up the dead ( resurrectin of the wicked (second resurrection) notice no
mention of righteous) and ALL was thrown into the lake of fire - the second
death (Rev 20:14, Rev 21:8).

	Mr. Jensen gave reference to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
Here are four points brought out in a book called "Answers to Difficult Bible
Texts" by Joe Crews on page 36.
	1. The beggar died and was taken by the angels to Abraham's bosom. No
one believes that Abraham's literal bosom is the abode of the righteous dead.
It is a figurative or parabolic expression. Incidentally, the angels will
gather the saints, but according to Matt. 24:31, it takes place at the coming
of Jesus - not at death.
	2. Heaven and hell were separated by a gulf, and they could converse 
with each other. There is probably no individual in the world who believes
that this will be literally true of the saved and the lost.
	3. The rich man was in hell with a body. He had eyes, tongue, etc.
How did this body get into hell fire instead of in the grave? No one teaches
that the bodies of the wicked go into hell as soon as they die. This story
could not be literal.
	4. The request of Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and
come through the flames to cool the rich man's tongue is obviously not literal.
How much moisture would be left and how much relief would it give? The story
is unrealistic and parabolic.
(Still quoting from the book) The rich man undoubtedly represented the Jews
in the parable because only a Jew would pray to "Father Abraham". The beggar
symbolized the Gentiles who were counted unworthy to receive the truth. In
Matt. 15:27 the Canaanite women acknowledged that they were beggars at the 
table of the Jews.
 Christ probably chose the name of Lazarus to use in the parable because
later He would actually raise Lazarus from the dead. And the climatic point
of the entire parable is found in verse 31, "If they hear not Moses and the
prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead."
And they didn't believe even when one named Lazarus was raised before them.
(End quote)

 Mr. Jensen mentions I Peter 3:18-20 as proof Christ went to paradise and 
preached. Here is a summary of this text from two books, one being the 
aforementioned book and the second a book called "Here and Hereafter" by
Uriah Smith. 
	Christ preached by the Spirit. When was the preaching done - in the
days of Noah as the ark was being built ("was a preparing" vs. 20). To whom
was the preaching done? spirits in prison. What is a spirit in prison? In
Psalms 142:7 David was asking God to bring his soul out of prison. In the
book of Isaiah 42:7 it's saying the gentiles are in prison or darkness
because they do not know the Lord. The authors says what Peter is telling
us is that Christ through the Holy Spirit was present while Noah preached.
Christ was there through the Holy Spirit appealing to their hearts. Also
if you say Christ preached to them while at death then your chronology
is incorrect. 1. Christ was "put to death in the flesh". 2. Next, He was
"quickened by the spirit" - resurrected (see Romans 8:11). 3. Then it talks
of Christ going and preaching to the spirits in prison. So then preaching
does not come in, on this ground, till after Christ was made alive from the
dead. Remember what I said in my last article that if we find a piece of
scripture that seems to contradict what so many other verses say then we
need to find the correct interpretation. God is an intelligent God and we
should not expect any contradiction. After a deeper study of this verse we
see it is not contradicting our other scripture on the dead - thoughts perish,
don't praise the lord, go back to earth, etc. This is a dificult verse but
after reading what scolars say about it we see it's harmony with the rest
of the Bible.

I Peter 4:6 does not stand as evidence that the gospel is preached to the 
dead. If you look at the verse ot says, "for this cause WAS (past tense)
the gospel preached also to them that are (present tense) dead." Enough said.

I have read and heard many sermons on Luke 23:42,43 which talks of the thief
and the promise, "I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
I have only two hard sources to give but I hve heard others say this. First,
one problem is the placement of the comma in the sentence. In the greek text
there is only continuous text - no seperation of words, sentences, etc. Bible
translators did that. If the comma was placed after "today"  the verse would
have been in harmony with the rest of the Bible. As a matter of fact, I've
read  where the thieves didn't die on the same day as Jesus did either. You
usually hung for days on the cross but Jesus died early because of a broken
heart, among other reasons. The source for this is in the books "Spirits
of the Dead" by Joe Crews and the book "Answers to Dificult Bible Texts" as
mentioned earlier. Ther are more sources but these are the only two in my
library of which I could give a name and author.
Also notice that Paul himself was looking for his crown of righteousnes to
be given at HIS APPEARING (Christ's second coming) II Timothy 4:6-8

 My last thought is on Paradise. Mr. Jensen said Paradise is a place not in
Heaven. I ask a question, is Heaven where God dwells? If in doubt read 
Psalms 11:14, 14:2, 20:6, 33:13. In II Corinthians 12:1-5 Paul tells of a
friend that was caught up to the third Heaven. (It should be clear that the
first heaven is the atmosphere, the second is the celestial heaven (stars,
planets) and the third is God's dwelling place.) In verse 5 Paul recalls
the third Heaven PARADISE. In Revelation 2:7 John states the Tree of Life
is in the MIDST of the PARADISE of God. In Revelation 22:2 as John is 
describing Heaven he tells you the Tree of Life is in HEAVEN and the margin
gives reference to Revelation 2:7. To me it's beautiful how the Bible can
flow and explain itself removing any doubt. As I said earlier we serve an
intelligent God so don't expect contradictions. If we have a problem with
one verse then read ALL verses on the subject then try to read the puzzling
one with the extra light shinning from your new knowledge. It could remove
alot of the puzzle. Also seek other sources from scholars that show the
harmony of scripture. II Timothy 3:16 says ALL scripture is given for
doctrine, reproof and correction. I don't want to seem as though I am 
atacking anybody for I am not. I am only speaking out against what I feel
is error. I have nothing against no man just error. For if it is error and I
speak not out against it, Then I'am held accountable for this.

God is Love (I John 4:16)
Peace to All
Stephen R. Boswell

jdj55611@ihuxk.UUCP (07/13/83)

I am continually chagrined by the ability of the proponents of various
beliefs to rely on the Bible for their inspiration yet proffer such widely
divergent claims. The state of the dead is just one such issue, but
the base question still remains:  What ever happened to the concept of
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism" that Paul preached? I might try to
attack that topic later; the issue at hand is, however, is a dead one.

A recent submission by S. Boswell on the subject of paradise and
resurrection told of a differing view. I would again like to address
several of the issues raised. I will also refer the reader to a quote
from the Interpreters Bible posted recently.

>From S. Boswells article:
>>>Here is my summary: (so you will know what's going on)
>>>Gen 2:7	dust + breath = LIVING soul ( takes both, not one or the other)
>>>Ecclesiastes 12:7 dust goes to earth, breath leaves, therefore you no longer
		have a living soul
>>>Gen 3:19 man returns to dust at death
>>>Job 14:10-12,21 man doesn't rise after death till heavens
		(atmosphere) pass away
>>>II Peter 3:10 heavens (atmosphere) pass away at Christ's coming
>>>Psalms 146:3,4 thoughts perish at death
>>>Acts 2:29-34, 13:36 David has not yet ascended to heaven
>>>I Thessalonians 4:13-18 dead IN CHRIST (christians) rising at Christ's return
>>>Isaiah 38:18,19; Psalms 115:17 dead DO NOT praise the Lord
>>>Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 dead know nothing, memory is gone (till resurrection)

First, a comment on Genesis. Have you ever wondered why man is the last
created in Chapter 1 yet the first `formed' in Chapter 2? In Gen. 1:27,
God created man, male and female. In 2:7, God now forms man out of the `dust
of the ground and breathed into his nostrils.' This could be viewed as
a spiritual creation followed by a physical creation. In other words, God
created Adam as a `spirit being' then merged that creation with the dust of
the earth followed by a `jump start.' (see Jer. 1:4,5)
The `breath of life' is the glue that holds our spirit and body together.
When we become unglued, that ability to join physical and spiritual remains
with God. The dust we have borrowed for the duration of our life on earth
remains here. The spirit and the body are the soul of man; the separation
of which does not obliterate the spirit. 

Now for Ecclesiastes. It is importent to recognize the frame of reference
of the writer of this book. In the introduction, he states `all is vanity.'
Vain, as defined by Webster, means one that is changeable or inconstant;
which is definately not an attribute of God. Ecc. is providing a worldly
view of life and death. Read through the book and you'll see what I mean.
I would be very careful before using any scripture from Ecclesiastes and
claiming it as gospel.

How about Job, the poor guy. As far as man not rising til the heavens
pass away, what about Matt. 27:52,53 which states that the bodies of
many of the saints arose and appeared to many. And I can't accept the
idea that the earthquake through them out on the road. How could you
tell a saint skeleton from a sinner skeleton? These two verses appear
out of context and should probably be associated with the time following
the resurrection of Christ. The first resurrection began with Christ and
I agree the the righteous will rise first, but that as Paul states in
Corinthians, each will get a turn sooner or later.
While we are in Job how about Job 19:25,26: "And though after my skin worms
destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." Job is talking
about the resurrection. (see also Luke 24:36-43)

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is an interesting section. I don't
think that Christ would have been so specific in that example had it not been
accurate. He spoke in parables to enlighten those who would hear, not
to tell fairy tales. All I can say is read it with an unbiased mind ( how
is that for an impossibility! ).

I have already submitted an article containing a commentary on 1 Peter,
but I do find it very difficult to follow S. Boswells reasoning on the
subject. Rather than repeat the argument I would refer the reader to
the article entitled "Commentary on Paradise."

Continuing with S. Boswell:

>>>I Peter 4:6 does not stand as evidence that the gospel is preached to the 
>>>dead. If you look at the verse ot says, "for this cause WAS (past tense)
>>>the gospel preached also to them that are (present tense) dead." Enough said.

Well, not quite enough. Lets continue with the verse:

	"...that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but
	live according to God in the spirit."

Here, Peter is indicating that the dead can live in the spirit. I 
don't think that sits well with your definition of dead.

>>Remember what I said in my last article that if we find a piece of
>>scripture that seems to contradict what so many other verses say then we
>>need to find the correct interpretation. God is an intelligent God and we
>>should not expect any contradiction.

Here is a chance for S. Boswell to apply his own reasoning:

>>I have read and heard many sermons on Luke 23:42,43 which talks of the thief
>>and the promise, "I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
>>I have only two hard sources to give but I hve heard others say this. First,
>>one problem is the placement of the comma in the sentence. In the greek text
>>there is only continuous text - no seperation of words, sentences, etc. Bible
>>translators did that. If the comma was placed after "today"  the verse would
>>have been in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

I spent some time browsing and have decided that this interpretation "seems
to contradict what so many other verses say." I could find no other
instance where a qualifier such as `today' was found in that language
construct of the four gospels.  What I am saying is that I could find no
other instance where Christ said something similar to `I say unto thee
today, ...' Based on your own admonition I must reject your argument.

>> As a matter of fact, I've
>>read  where the thieves didn't die on the same day as Jesus did either. You
>>usually hung for days on the cross but Jesus died early because of a broken
>>heart, among other reasons. The source for this is in the books "Spirits
>>of the Dead" by Joe Crews and the book "Answers to Dificult Bible Texts" as
>>mentioned earlier. Ther are more sources but these are the only two in my
>>library of which I could give a name and author.

The thieves sharing Golgatha with Christ did NOT hang for days on the
cross. In John 19:31-33, the Jews did not want the bodies remaining on
the crosses while they prepared for the Sabbath. They impuned Pilate to
remove them;  the guards then broke the legs of the thieves. This action
brought death soon to the thieves because they could no longer raise
themselves up to catch the breath. The bodies, in accordance with the
wishes of the Jews, were removed before sundown.

>>In II Corinthians 12:1-5 Paul tells of a
>>friend that was caught up to the third Heaven. (It should be clear that the
>>first heaven is the atmosphere, the second is the celestial heaven (stars,
>>planets) and the third is God's dwelling place.) In verse 5 Paul recalls
>>the third Heaven PARADISE. In Revelation 2:7 John states the Tree of Life
>>is in the MIDST of the PARADISE of God. In Revelation 22:2 as John is 
>>describing Heaven he tells you the Tree of Life is in HEAVEN and the margin
>>gives reference to Revelation 2:7.

First of all, I don't think the definition above should be clear. I would 
like to see some scriptural evidence assigning the heavens as such. I would
more likely equate the three heavens to the three glories described by Paul
in Corinthians associated with the resurrection. (see 1 Cor. 15:40-42)
In verse 5, Paul could just as easliy be describing two places visited;
paradise and heaven.
Finally, I absolutely agree with you that in Rev. 22:2 the tree of life
is in heaven. This scripture is a description of the heavenly city
associated with Gods eternal reign. By this time, there is no longer
a paradise as I described since all men have been judged and resurrected.

Well, this has turned out to be longer than I anticipated.
I, too, would encourage seekers to search out the best books. I am very
careful in my selection of reference material and have found few authors
I would dare rely completely on. One source I would recommend is the
`Interpreters Bible.' This is an extensive work by theologians which
provides excellent insight into the scriptures.

I still think the basic question is: What happens to all the people
who have never heard of the gospel? My answer to the question is that
God provides a mechanism for ALL to hear and accept or reject the
gospel. This is one of the purposes of paradise. The Lord has said:

	"This is my work and my glory - to bring to pass the 
	immortality and eternal life of man."


			J. D. Jensen
			ihuxk!jdj55611
			BTL Naperville IL