wex@ittvax.UUCP (Alan Wexelblat) (07/19/83)
Very often, I sit back and let others reply to this form of propaganda/trash. The bad experiences I have had with the Bible-thumpers (q.v. net.singles) tend to discourage me from ever trying to discourse intelligently with them. No one, however, has ever accused me of not being persistent, so here we go: From: Bob Langdon God owes no man an explanation for the things he [sic] does. It is impossible to find these things out unless God choses [sic] to reveal His reasons for doing things. I disagree. This world is a pretty crappy place, and I feel God owes me a good explanation of why this is so, and what I am expected to do about it. Isn't this precisely what the Bible is supposed to tell us? Furthermore, how do you come to the conclusion that it is impossible for us to find these things out? God expects us to use our reasoning facilities. That is what faith in God is based upon. Wrong. I suggest you read Kierkegaard for a very good explanation of how reason can \lead/ to faith, but not how faith can be "based" on reason. I Also suggest you check out Webster, since your definition of 'faith' seems to be different from his. No one has asked you to stop your thinking processes. No, you just want us to admit that our thinking processes are doomed to failure, which is semantically equivalent. God's ways are literally past finding out. If God wanted man to know His every reason for doing things He would have spelled it out. How do you know that He would have spelled it out? You just finished saying that no one can figure out God's ways, and now you want to claim that you know what He "would have done." You can't have it both ways. The problem is an unregenerated mind trying to find out the ways of God before he will except [sic] God. I was under the impression that only Timelords regenerated (q.v. net.sf-lovers). But leaving that aside for the moment, are you telling me that if I make some form of modification to my mind, then I will be able to figure out the ways of God? And if so, what's the problem? God gave us enough information to bring our hearts and minds back to Him. I deny that my heart or my mind ever left God, and I challenge you to prove otherwise. IN FACT, I claim that the reason I have broken my long silence on this topic is because I had a long talk with Him, and He told me that I should not be afraid to speak my mind. The trouble with man is he is always looking for a sign. Even if someone were raised from the dead man still will not believe. Ah, then you don't beleive that Jesus was reaised from the dead! Or, you are not a man (by which I think you mean human). Which is it? The nation of Israel saw many signs and wonders as God showed Himself as El Shaddai(the all powerful). They saw the twelve plagues on Egypt, the pillar of fire by night, the pillar of cloud by day, the parting of the Red Sea, the drowning of the Egyptian Army, etc. etc. and still they refused to believe. Boy, are \you/ confused! First, the twelve plagues were signs TO THE EGYPTIANS that they had incurred God's wrath by keeping the Hebrews as slaves. As you may note, each plague is worse that the preceding one, as God is making His message clearer. Nothing mysterious about THOSE ways! Second, you had better beleive that we remember. I hereby invite you to my seder next spring at which time I will celebrate my liberation from Egypt, and the receipt of the ten commandments. It is obvious that you have never been to a seder before, or you would not make foolish statements like these. (Note; send me netmail, and I will send you the address of my apartment in west philadelphia.) Though many signs and miracles are performed in Jesus' name you still will not believe. Oh, really? And what signs and miracles, pray tell, do you refer to? I have yet to see them reported on the six o'clock news. There is one coming who will come in his own name and he the nations of the world will follow to there [sic] destruction. He is the anti-christ. He will come performing miracles and giving signs that will,if possible,deceive even the very elect. Admitting for the moment that you are correct about the existence of such a person (something I find doubtful), how do you know that he has not already arrived and performed the very miracles you spoke of above? How do you know that you are not being deceived yourself? Do you claim to be immune to this deception by some special facility? And what do you mean by the 'very elect.' The way I look at it, you are either elected, or you are not. It is hard to be "very elected." Noah by faith in what God told him, built the ark, when rain and floods were never heard of. Really now? How did crops ever grow if there was no rain? That must have been one heck of an ecology! God even now is warning the world of a coming judgment. Izzatso? I haven't heard anything about it. In fact, if you took a poll of the net readers, I'll bet that the vast majority of them haven't heard anything about it. It seems that this is a pretty poor warning system. I tell you now that it is even at the door as you are reading this. No, actually that's one of my co-workers asking me if I want to go to lunch. And by the way, he's a 'he,' not an it. The key, my friend, is the middle east. Take a good look to what is happening to Israel. Israel will defeat the Arabs time and time again. They are God's people. Any nation that has dared to pick on the nation of Israel was wiped out. That is why Israel is wiping out the nations before them. Israel is outnumbered by a great deal, but they have pushed their enemys [sic] back even as to take part of their country(Egyptians sinai etc.) [sic] I don't see how Israel relates at all to what you are talking about, but as long as you brought it up: 1) I hope you are correct about the Israeli's string of victories. That does not mean that I supposrt aggression, though. Israel, like all nations, has a right to security. Security does not mean "wiping out" nations that oppose you. No nation has that right. I would prefer a thousandfold that all the middle eastern nations sit down over a peace table, rather than be pushed back another inch. 2) Israel is not so outnumbered. In Lebanon, when the Syrians when to war-ready status, the Israelis matched them gun for gun. Only when several Arab states have attacked at once has Israel been 'outnumbered by a great deal.' 3) The Israelis gave back the Sinai (and its oilfields and airstrips) long ago. Israel only holds territories of nations that consider themselves at war with her (look it up: Lebanon, Syria, Jordan &c have been at war -- by their own declaration -- since 1948). 4) In case you have forgotten: Israel is a Jewish state. They do not beleive in your Christ, and many of them have suffered personal persecution of one form or another because of that beleif. We do not support you; do not look to us for support of your ridiculous claims. 'Nuff said. --Alan Wexelblat decvax!ittvax!wex