[net.religion] Tough question about Adam + Eve

jjm@hou5e.UUCP (J McParland) (08/03/83)

I happened to be watching TV on Sunday night and saw a video-evangelist
giving a sermon about Adam + Eve and the Tree of Knowledge....

I had a very hard time following his logic, so I would like to ask for
a clarification from any bible scholars out there on this point:

	God told Adam and Eve that if they eat from the tree of
	knowledge "that day they will surely die".

	Satan told Eve that if they eat from the tree of knowledge
	"they will surely NOT die".

	After Adam + Eve eat the fruit, God punishes them, but he does
	not KILL them.

My question is:  Did God lie about the peril of eating the fruit?
Did Satan tell the truth about the fruit (note that this is a separate issue)?

I don't have a bible handy, so maybe someone can post the exact chapter and
verse for these passages...

	Jim McParland
	(an ex-catholic who kept getting in trouble in catholic high school
		for asking questions like this)
	ABI - HO
	hou5e!jjm

jeffo@houxq.UUCP (08/04/83)

The verses you refer to are:

    "but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of
     it: for on the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
                               (Genesis Chapter 2, Verse 17)

    "And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die."
                               (Genesis Chapter 3, Verse 4)

In response to your question, a number of answers have been offered by 
Jewish scholars through the ages:

    (1) Adam was created immortal; his sin caused him to become mortal.
        Thus, "you shall surely die" is understood as "you shall become
        mortal (subject to death)."  This approach is offered by both
        Nachmanides (a.k.a. Ramban - Rabbi Moses ben Nachman - 12th Century
        Spain) and Chizkuni (Rabbi Hezekiah ben Manoach - 13th Century
        France).

    (2) Adam was created as a mortal; his sin caused him to die an early,
        though not immediate, death.  Thus "you shall surely die" means
        "you shall become liable under the death penalty (and die an early
        death)."  This approach is offered by Rabbi Sa'adia Gaon (9th 
        Century Egypt) and Radak (Rabbi David Kimchi - 12th Century France).

    (3) A novel approach is offered by a more recent scholar, Rabbi Samson
        Raphael Hirsch (18th Century Germany):
 
            "But it is possible that the decree '[you] must die' was
             actually carried out immediately.  For we do find elsewhere
             that banishment from home takes place of, and is imposed in
             lieu of the death penalty, as for instance in the case of
             Cain, and with unpremeditated manslaughter.  Banishment is
             death on a reduced scale.  Death itself is not a termination
             of existence, but only a termination of existence here.  And
             so banishment from Paradise may have been death in a milder
             form.  For we can form no conception of what life in [the 
             Garden of Eden] is really like.  Between that and ordinary 
             life out in the world there may be such a break, such a gulf,
             that the transition from one to the other may not have been
             dissimilar to our departure from this world to the next world."



                                         Jeffrey Geizhals
                                         American Bell Inc.
                                         (AT&T Information Systems)
                                         (201) 834-4673

johnr@tekmdp.UUCP (John Rutis) (08/04/83)

In responce to Jim McParland, Jim said:

   I happened to be watching TV on Sunday night and saw a video-evangelist
   giving a sermon about Adam + Eve and the Tree of Knowledge....

   I had a very hard time following his logic, so I would like to ask for
   a clarification from any bible scholars out there on this point:

	   God told Adam and Eve that if they eat from the tree of
	   knowledge "that day they will surely die".
   
	   Satan told Eve that if they eat from the tree of knowledge
	   "they will surely NOT die".

	   After Adam + Eve eat the fruit, God punishes them, but he does
	   not KILL them.

   My question is:  Did God lie about the peril of eating the fruit?
   Did Satan tell the truth about the fruit (note that this is a separate
   issue)?



I'm not a Bible Scholar but it's not hard to answer at all -

* But the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it;
* for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Gen 2:17)

They DID die, didn't they?  They are not still around.  You can look at
the phrase "in that day" as a figure of speach or literally.  A thousand
years is to God as a day; Adam lived less than 1000 years.  I presume Eve
also lived less than 1000 years.  God told the truth.

* And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die; (Gen 3:4)

They did die; Satan told a lie.  Note that Eve, in repeating Gods warning
(vs 3), did not say "in that day", nor did Satan qualify his statement with
that phrase; he simply said "Ye shall not surely die."

If Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of life instead of the tree of good
and evil, they would not have ever had to die.

* And the LORD God said, ... lest he put forth his hand, and take also of
* the tree of life, an eat, and live forever: (Gen 3:22)

John Rutis

alle@ihuxb.UUCP (08/04/83)

The standard explanation (that I have always heard) is that God
did not mean that they would physically die that day.  He meant
that they would experience a spiritual death - a loss of innocence.

The serpent basically told the truth, but not the whole truth.

In the next chapter of Genesis (chap 3), when God evicts Adam and
Eve from the garden, he does this so that they will no longer have
access to the Tree of Life (the fruit of which would give them
eternal life).  So in a sense, Adam and Eve caused their own
deaths by violating the rules.

The verses you want are in Genesis chapters 2 and 3 (KJV).

Allen England at BTL Naperville, IL
ihnp4!ihuxb!alle

ecn-ec:ecn-pc:ecn-ed:vu@pur-ee.UUCP (08/08/83)

	When God said `you will surely die',He was talking about A+E's
souls. Satan, on the other hand, meant the physical death. So, nobody lied
[including Satan: he was too smart to lie outright!].

Hao-Nhien Vu  pur-ee!vu   or better:  pur-ee!norris