trese@ihuxv.UUCP (08/19/83)
I fell urged to respond to Tom Albrecht's comments concerning H. Reza
Taheri's comments concerning statements made by "Jimmy Swaggart, et. al."
I cannot say that I am coming to Mr. Swaggart's defense. Indeed, if H.
Reza's synopsis of Mr. Swaggart's statements are correct, then Swaggart's
statements are truly weak and illogical. I believe, however, that Swaggart's
conclusion is correct, though not for the reasons he was said to have given.
Tom indicated a belief that the title of "God's chosen people" grew out
of a "misconception of a key Bible principle, that of loving our neighbors."
I believe, however, that this title actually comes from statements made in
the Old Testament indicating God's relation to Israel. In Deuteronomy
7:6-9, Jehovah speaks:
"For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God; the Lord thy
God hath CHOSEN thee to be a SPECIAL PEOPLE unto himself, *above*
all people who are upon the face of the earth. The Lord did not
set his love upon you, nor CHOOSE you, because ye were more in
number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people. But
because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath
which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you
out with a mighty hand and redeemed you out of the house of bondage,
from the hand of Pharoah, king of Egypt. Know, therefore, that the
Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, who keepeth covenant
and mercy with them who love him and keep his commandments to a
thousand generations...."
(my emphasis) (KJV) (*above* is better rendered "from out of"
in the original Hebrew)
The oath referred to above can be found (among other places where it is
similarly stated) in Genesis 17:7:
"And I [Jehovah] will establish my covenant between me and thee
[Abraham] and THY SEED after thee in their generations for an
EVERLASTING covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to THY SEED
after thee."
(emphasis mine)
I do not mean to overlook the obvious fact (at least obvious to me and
most Christians) that God's purpose for his people Israel and the rest of the
Gentile nations was fulfilled in Jesus Christ's birth, death, and resurrection.
I also do not mean to overlook the point that the Jews have rejected Jesus,
and most still reject him. However, much of the Old Testament (particularly
from Isaiah on, especially Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Zechariah) fortells the
dispersion of Israel, salvation of the "remnant," and eventual reconciliation
to God and life in the "promised land." In this respect Israel is still God's
chosen people, though I believe Tom is correct in saying "God's chosen people
include all those that believe in Christ for their salvation." But notice
that Christian believers are said to become "sons of Abraham" (Galatians 3:7);
i.e. we are spiritual sons of Abraham and IN THIS WAY (through Christ) become
God's chosen people. Remember Paul's words concerning Christians who "boasted
against the branches" [i.e. Israel]:
"Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest
not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say, then, the branches
were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well, because of
unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not
high-minded, but fear; for if God spared not the natural branches,
take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold, therefore, the
goodness and severity of God: on them who fell, severity; but
toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness; otherwise
thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still
in unbelief, shall be grafted in; FOR GOD IS ABLE TO GRAFT THEM IN
AGAIN."
(Romans 11:18-23) (emphasis mine) (I believe "root" may refer to
Abraham)
In conclusion to this rather lengthy harangue (sorry!) I must address Tom's
interpretation of what (I believe) "God's chosen people" means. I do not
believe it refers to one people's "superiority" over any other. God GIVES
us salvation--we do not earn it by being better than anyone else. "By
GRACE are ye saved through FAITH." (Ephesians 2:8) (emphasis mine) Thus, to
be one of God's chosen people is not an expression of racism--any may enter
into God's mercy.
The belief in the support for Israel comes from the notion that "Israel shall
be saved" (Romans 11:26), that we are in the end times, that a final conflict
is impending, that Israel shall be at the center of that conflict, and that
God shall support Israel in the final battle. As a Christian and rational
being, I want to be on the "winning" side--with God! In anticipation of the
fulfillment of Old Testament promises, I choose to support Israel.
Tim Lorello
BTL @ Naperville, Il.
P.S. Tom, I am greatly interested in both the concept of "Dispensationalism"
and your interpretation of the Millenium. My path (I think this is
right--I'm new at this) is ihuxv!timim (in case you do not wish to
make it public or possibly bore readers with our discussion). Thanks!trese@ihuxv.UUCP (08/19/83)
I felt urged to respond to Tom Albrecht's comments concerning H. Reza
Taheri's comments concerning statements made by "Jimmy Swaggart, et. al."
I cannot say that I am coming to Mr. Swaggart's defense. Indeed, if H.
Reza's synopsis of Mr. Swaggart's statements are correct, then Swaggart's
statements are truly weak and illogical. I believe, however, that Swaggart's
conclusion is correct, though not for the reasons he was said to have given.
Tom indicated a belief that the title of "God's chosen people" grew out
of a "misconception of a key Bible principle, that of loving our neighbors."
I believe, however, that this title actually comes from statements made in
the Old Testament indicating God's relation to Israel. In Deuteronomy
7:6-9, Jehovah speaks:
"For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God; the Lord thy
God hath CHOSEN thee to be a SPECIAL PEOPLE unto himself, *above*
all people who are upon the face of the earth. The Lord did not
set his love upon you, nor CHOOSE you, because ye were more in
number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people. But
because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath
which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you
out with a mighty hand and redeemed you out of the house of bondage,
from the hand of Pharoah, king of Egypt. Know, therefore, that the
Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, who keepeth covenant
and mercy with them who love him and keep his commandments to a
thousand generations...."
(my emphasis) (KJV) (*above* is better rendered "from out of"
in the original Hebrew)
The oath referred to above can be found (among other places where it is
similarly stated) in Genesis 17:7:
"And I [Jehovah] will establish my covenant between me and thee
[Abraham] and THY SEED after thee in their generations for an
EVERLASTING covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to THY SEED
after thee."
(emphasis mine)
I do not mean to overlook the obvious fact (at least obvious to me and
most Christians) that God's purpose for his people Israel and the rest of the
Gentile nations was fulfilled in Jesus Christ's birth, death, and resurrection.
I also do not mean to overlook the point that the Jews have rejected Jesus,
and most still reject him. However, much of the Old Testament (particularly
from Isaiah on, especially Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Zechariah) fortells the
dispersion of Israel, salvation of the "remnant," and eventual reconciliation
to God and life in the "promised land." In this respect Israel is still God's
chosen people, though I believe Tom is correct in saying "God's chosen people
include all those that believe in Christ for their salvation." But notice
that Christian believers are said to become "sons of Abraham" (Galatians 3:7);
i.e. we are spiritual sons of Abraham and IN THIS WAY (through Christ) become
God's chosen people. Remember Paul's words concerning Christians who "boasted
against the branches" [i.e. Israel]:
"Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest
not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say, then, the branches
were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well, because of
unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not
high-minded, but fear; for if God spared not the natural branches,
take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold, therefore, the
goodness and severity of God: on them who fell, severity; but
toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness; otherwise
thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still
in unbelief, shall be grafted in; FOR GOD IS ABLE TO GRAFT THEM IN
AGAIN."
(Romans 11:18-23) (emphasis mine) (I believe "root" may refer to
Abraham)
In conclusion to this rather lengthy harangue (sorry!) I must address Tom's
interpretation of what (I believe) "God's chosen people" means. I do not
believe it refers to one people's "superiority" over any other. God GIVES
us salvation--we do not earn it by being better than anyone else. "By
GRACE are ye saved through FAITH." (Ephesians 2:8) (emphasis mine) Thus, to
be one of God's chosen people is not an expression of racism--any may enter
into God's mercy.
The belief in the support for Israel comes from the notion that "Israel shall
be saved" (Romans 11:26), that we are in the end times, that a final conflict
is impending, that Israel shall be at the center of that conflict, and that
God shall support Israel in the final battle. As a Christian and rational
being, I want to be on the "winning" side--with God! In anticipation of the
fulfillment of Old Testament promises, I choose to support Israel.
Tim Lorello
BTL @ Naperville, Il.
P.S. Tom, I am greatly interested in both the concept of "Dispensationalism"
and your interpretation of the Millenium. My path (I think this is
right--I'm new at this) is ihuxv!timim (in case you do not wish to
make it public or possibly bore readers with our discussion). Thanks!