sdb@shark.UUCP (Steven Den Beste) (08/24/83)
Now that I have your attention: Paul Dubuc has asked for a place where the modern Christian church has consciously changed the teachings of the Bible to satisfy modern governments. "Thou shalt not kill". Generally this commandment is interpreted as not allowing any human to kill another human. Consider: 1. A good, loyal Christian member of our country is drafted and sent to war. He kills an enemy soldier. This is not a surprise - that is what he is THERE to do, and everyone knows ahead of time. Generally, most Christian churches treat this as a personal choice. If he decides not to be drafted, the church will support him. If he decides to go ahead in the military, the church supports him that way, too. (There are notable exceptions: Quakers and Mormons (score one for you, Russ).) 2. A person owns a hand gun. In the privacy of his home, a prowler breaks in and threatens him. The gun is used to kill the prowler. Again, this is not unpredictable - that is why the gun was there in the first place. A pistol has no other purpose. Most modern Christian churches will not condemn this person for acting in self defense. The commandment is not ambiguous, though most modern churches have mealy-mouthed about it - some have decided that it REALLY reads "thou shalt not MURDER", so self-defense and warfare are OK... If the church were using the morality of the country it is in, it would act the way it does now. If the church steadfastly stood behind this commandment, then no Christian in this country would join the military or allow himself to be drafted. Is that happening? If the church steadfastly stood behind this commandment, no christian would ever own a hand gun, and the christian church would be in the forefront of the gun-control issue. Hear that hollow echo? I don't consider this to be a "minor" point - it is one of the big ten on which the entire morality of the Christian church is based. Steve Den Beste Tektronix [decvax!ucbvax]!tektronix!tekecs!shark!sdb
emma@uw-june (Joe Pfeiffer) (08/25/83)
My understanding is that the commandment is indeed more correctly translated as "Thou shalt not murder." -Joe P.
CSvax:Pucc-H:aeq@pur-ee.UUCP (08/27/83)
Steve Den Beste: Alas, I know neither Greek nor Hebrew, but in Christian
writings discussing the "Thou shalt not kill/murder" commandment by those
knowledgeable in at least one of those languages (e.g. C.S. Lewis), it is
clearly explained that (just as in English) there is a {Greek, Hebrew} word
"kill" and another one "murder", and that the "murder" word is used in the
{G, H} manuscripts. Remember that "Thou shalt not kill" was translated
nearly 400 years ago, when "slay" was the generic term for ending someone's
life, while "kill" implied premeditation. In other words, this is not a
question of "transgression" at all, but rather a question of shifting
meanings of language (should it be in net.nlang?).
-- Jeff Sargent/pur-ee!pucc-h:aeqrogers@dadla-b.UUCP (08/29/83)
Steve- About your 2 points. Yes, this does happen to some religious people, but if I may, I would like to tell you and others what I would do in your 2 circumstances. 1) About going into the army and killing an enemy. I personally could not do this. I would go into the army to serve as a cook, mechanic, janitor, or any other non combat position. If such was not possible, I would either not join up, or join up and then be locked up in the stockade for not performing my "duty" and killing an enemy. 2) About killing the burglar with the handgun. I would let him go ahead and rob me, without trying to stop him (except with words). Everything I own (possession wise) can be replaced (that is why I have insurance). Even if I didn't have insurance, those possessions could be replaced. Most true born again Christains would lay down their own lives for others. And yes, because I can proudly say I AM a born again Christain, I would gladly give up my earthly life (for a greater life with the Lord Jesus), for anyone (including you Steve). Roger Southwick tektronix!rogers (will be forwarded)