jdj55611@ihuxk.UUCP (09/16/83)
During the course of this debate on `Mormonism,' Jon White indicated that he felt certain areas ha been slighted. One such topic was that of the prophecy on wars given to Joseph Smith in 1832. The text of this revelation is found in the Doctrine and Covenants. Section 87 verses 1 through 6 reads as follows: "Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations. And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshalled and disciplined for war. And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshall themselves, and shall become exceeding angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation. And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightnings also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God..." I now quote from White's article: >Larry Jonas has shown that Smith could have easily gotten the idea for this >revelation from views of his time: >"...At the time Smith made his prophecy, the Nation expected a war between >North and South to begin at the rebellion of South Carolina. This can be >confirmed from a U.S. history book. Better yet, let me confirm it from a >Latter-day Saints Church publication, "Evening and Morning Star",...the >issue which came out for January 1833. The news of South Carolina's >rebellion was known...before December 25, 1832 but it was not available >in time for the December issue...The example [news article] and the >prophesy are strangely similar...Both consider the pending war a sign of >the end -- which it was not. In fact, THE WAR EXPECTED IN 1832 DID NOT >COME TO PASS.... [emphasis mine -JW] >(Mormon Claims Examined, by Larry S. Jonas, p. 52) >Smith said that war "will shortly come to pass," and it did not. The Civil >War didn't occur until 30 years later. Smith clearly stated the Southern >States "will call on all other nations...and then war shall be poured out upon >all nations..." There is simply no way that the Mormons can weasel out of the >fact that Smith predicted world-wide conflict shortly after 1832. He did not >predict the Civil War as it happened. First of all, it is importent to note that, as indicated in the beginning verse, this revelation concerns `the WARS [plural] that will shortly come to pass.' This revelation as stated is not restricted to the Civil War but encompasses the many conflicts mankind was destined to endure in the next period of time. And what was this period of time that the Lord said would `shortly come to pass?' No man can establish a timetable for God. Paul, in his second epistle to the Thessalonians, chastened the saints for their concern about the eminent return of Christ. What is long or short in the eternal prespective? I agree that Joseph Smith was prompted to make the revelation by viewing the events of his time. Throughout this period revelations were given in response to concerns or questions. I do take issue, however with the statement that `the Nation expected was between the North and the South to begin at the rebellion of S. C.' Let's look at the events which occurred in the year of 1832. In response to pleas from the representatives from the northern industrial areas, Congress instituted a tariff on goods entering the country; an act which was intended to cut down the flow of imported goods in competition with the northern states. South Carolina reacted by issuing an `Ordinance of Nullification' which in essence stated that they declared the tariff null and void and would prevent any attempts to enforce the law within the boundries of the state. S. C. also threatened to separate from the nation and form its own government if pressured. A compromise tariff was worked out and tensions eased. In hindsight, it is easy to say that war was expected. There are several points I want to make: 1. There was no recognized coalition of the southern states as there was at the beginning of the Civil War. In the document issued by S. C., there is an indication that Georgia shared their views but none of the southern states officially joined with S. C. in its claims. 2. The issue was centered on the right of a state to reject federal fiat. In Section 131 Joseph Smith stated `that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina. It may probably arise through the slave question.' 3.The fact that a news article and Smith's revelation would appear in the same issue is doublesided. I see it equally likely that the revelation on wars would prompt the editors of a church-run newspaper to cite current events in support of the prophecy. Let's deal with a similar circumstance. Suppose I were to say today that the third World War would shortly come to pass and that the event would be born out of the fighting in Lebanon. I would suppose that I am fairly safe in this pronouncement, especially considering prophecies are already existing which point to conflict in the Middle East; a luxury that Joseph Smith did not have. Why doesn't somebody look me up in twenty years and see if my guess was correct. Think about the many complex variables involved in this guess. Concerning the remnants, it is evident that `remnant' implies those who remain [Matt 22:6] or who are perserved for the Lord to fulfill His purposes [Ezek 14:22,23 Rom 9:29]. The Doctrine and Covenants, in Section 45, talks of a `remnant' "scattered among all nations... they shall be gathered again; but they shall remain until the times of the Gentles be fulfilled. And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion..." This `remnant' is definately not the Indians since these were not scattered among all nations. It is importent to note that the scenarios of Sections 45 and 87 are the same; both describing events that are to come. I suggest that the `remnants' as described in Section 45 are those mentioned in Section 87. There is much more that could be said about this issue, I hope Jon doesn't feel slighted. I have run out of time and have the feeling that the rest of the readers are beginning to suffer also. I suggest all parties concerned take a six month hiatus and examine the issues on both sides. J. D. Jensen ihuxk!jdj55611 BTL Naperville IL