russ@dadla-b.UUCP (09/17/83)
Well Jon White wants me to be more complete in my answers so I
will try to be more complete this time. Jon's comments are indented.
You must keep in mind that YOU are the one making extravagant
claims, and therefore it is up to YOU to not only prove your
contentions, but also to disprove any reasonable objections to
those contentions.
The only claim that I made that started this whole discussion, you have
hardly touched. I claim that the Book of Mormon is consistent with the
time and place that it is suppose to have come from. You have brought up
many issues which I have tried to answer, but still the central claim
still stands. If the Book of Mormon stands up under that claim, then the other
points become less significant. Then the Book of Mormon is what it says it is
and that reflects positively on the prophet Joseph Smith.
One of the things to which Russ took strong exception was my
assertion that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. According to
"The Inspired Version of the Holy Scripture" (the Bible that
Smith personally approved), if a prophet blows it even once, then
he is a false prophet. (See Deuteronomy 18:20-22; this passage
is the same in the King James version as in Smith's version ).
Why do you bring in a totally irrelevant issue. What does the Inspired
Version have to do with this discussion. We use the King James Version
of the Bible. There is no Smith's version of the Bible. Joseph Smith did
go through the Bible and the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints did have those changes published as the "Inspired Version" but we
have always used the King James Version. However portions called the Book
of Moses were included in the Pearl of Great Price which we do use as
Scripture, and we do refer to the other changes that Joseph Smith made for
reference.
Smith's most famous prediction, the one that "really proves him
to be prophet" was made on December 25, 1832:
Who are you quoting?
"...At the rebellion of South Carolina...the Southern States will
call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain...and
then war shall be poured out upon all nations...And...slaves
shall rise against their masters...and the remnants...shall vex
the Gentiles with a sore vexation." (Doctrine and Covenants,
87:1-5)
Larry Jonas has shown that Smith could have easily gotten the
idea for this revelation from views of his time:
"...At the time Smith made his prophecy, the Nation expected a
war between North and South to begin at the rebellion of South
Carolina. This can be confirmed from a U.S. history book.
However, at this time in history it was not expected that the issue for the
war would be slavery. The conflict was on tariffs.
Better yet, let me confirm it from a Latter-day Saints Church
publication, "Evening and Morning Star",...the issue which came
out for January 1833. The news of South Carolina's rebellion was
known...before December 25, 1832 but it was not available in time
for the December issue...The example [news article] and the
prophesy are strangely similar...Both consider the pending war a
sign of the end -- which it was not. In fact, THE WAR EXPECTED
IN 1832 DID NOT COME TO PASS.... [emphasis mine -JW] (Mormon
Claims Examined, by Larry S. Jonas, p. 52)
Smith said that war "will shortly come to pass," and it did not.
The Civil War didn't occur until 30 years later.
This was a short time relative to the whole revelation.
Smith clearly stated the Southern States "will call on all other
nations...and then war shall be poured out upon all nations..."
The part Jon left out is that this this is Great Britain that would
call on other nations, which did not happen until the First World War.
There is simply no way that the Mormons can weasel out of the fact that
Smith predicted world-wide conflict shortly after 1832. He did
not predict the Civil War as it happened.
I think that I have shown in the previous paragraphs that Russ is
incorrect on this point. I find it highly interesting that he
totally ignored my comments on the rest of the prediction: "The
slaves did not `rise against their masters,' and the `remnants'
(who were the Indians) were themselves vexed by the Gentiles."
These predictions have not even been fulfilled and are indicated to be
fulfilled at a future time. They had nothing to do with the Civil War.
The slaves referred to are not the Black slaves, they are oppressed people.
Smith obviously thought that the Slaves and Indians would get
involved and prevail, but since it never happened, and can't ever
happen, Joseph Smith goofed. Unless Russ can explain his way out
of this one, Smith was a false prophet.
If you applied this test with the same degree of literalism, Moses, Jeremiah,
and Paul would also fail to measure up. Moses in Gen. 17:1-14
states that God gave Abraham an everlasting covenant and that the token
of that covenant was circumcision; which was also to be everlasting. Verse
14 indicates that any "man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not
circumcized, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken
my covenant." But Paul in Romans 4 and Galatians 5 indicates that circumcision
availed nothing. Moses says that it was an everlasting covenant and Paul
says it isn't, who is right?
Moses also said that the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood was to be an ever-
lasting priesthood.(Numbers 25:10-14; Exodus 40:12-15) Yet Paul says that
the priesthood was changed.(Hebrews 7:12) If the priesthood was to be
everlasting, why was the priesthood changed? Where is the Levitical Priesthood
today?
Jeremiah was so upset that his predictions weren't coming to pass that he called
God a liar.(Jer. 15:18) If one is an extreme literalist, Jeremiah's prediction
of the seventy years of captivity did not come to pass. It was less than
seventy years. Jeremiah also predicted that King Zedekiah would die in peace
and that odours would be burned for him.(Jer. 34:4-5) Instead, Zedekiah had his
eyes put out, his children slaughtered, and he died in a Babylonian prison. On
another occasion Jeremiah prophecied that King Jehoiakim "shall have none to
sit upon the throne of David,"(Jer. 36:30), and yet the very next king was
Jehoiachin, the son Jehoiakim. See 1 Chron. 3:16 and Jer. 37:1. There are
others, but one mistake and you are out according to Jon.
It seems that Jon's literalism would leave very few prophets for us to worry
about. I don't think this is a valid criticism of Joseph Smith if it were not
applied to all prophets. A double standard will do us no good. I do accept
Moses and Jeremiah as prophets, but I don't believe that prophets can't make
mistakes. Even Paul admitted to uncertainty at times when after giving
counsel to prospective missionaries on the subject of marriage he said, "I
think also that I have the Spirit of God."(1 Cor. 7:40). To claim
infallibility for all prophets would relegate them to be nothing more than
puppets of God. Infallibility is something that prophets never claim for
themselves.
I think that it is ironic that Jon can quote from the Doctrine of Covenants
which he does not accept as Scripture with his interpretation, and then
expect me to accept his interpretation. He would not allow that much freedom
to an atheist for his use of the Bible. It is true that the prophecy did not
come true like Jon interpreted that it should. But Jon's interpretation was
not what was meant. Let us quote those verses along with a couple that were
given at the same time.
"I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the
difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the
Son of Man will be in South Carolina.
It may probably arise through the slave question. This a voice declared to me
while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832."
(D&C 130:12-13)
And the verses Jon quoted from:
"Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass
beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate
in the death and misery of many souls;
And the time will come that war will poured out upon all nations, beginning
at this place.
For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern
States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation
of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall call upon other nations, in
order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be
poured out upon all nations.
And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against
their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land
will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex
the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall
mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven,
and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth
be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty
God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to
come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of
their enemies.
Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the
Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen. (D&C 87)
This revelation was given on Christmas day in 1832. There was a considerable
conflict between the North and the South on the question of tariffs.
It was during this conflict that Joseph made the condition of this Country
a matter of prayer and received the Revelation. Although there presently was
a conflict between the North and the South, the Revelation correctly identified
slavery as the future issue which would lead to war between the States.
One of the mistakes that Jon makes is assuming that this Revelation only
deals with the Civil War. As can be easily seen by looking at the verses
quoted, the Revelation talks about wars that will take place until the coming
of the Lord. What it actually says is:
1. That the agitation will lead to war;
2. That South Carolina will take the initiative.
3. That the war will bring death and misery to many souls;
4. That the rebellion in South Carolina is only the beginning;
5. That there will be a division between Southern and Northern States;
6. That the South will appeal to Great Britian and other nations for aid;
7. And they [Great Britain] shall call on other nations
8. then war shall be poured out upon all nations;
This should be enough for now, more to follow.
Russell Anderson
Tektronix