garys@bunkerb.UUCP (Gary Samuelson) (11/18/83)
Repsonses to Rich Rosen's responses to my responses to his questions:
RR:
My own feeling is that it is great to ask other people (living
entities) for advice and help. When one "asks god" or "prays to
god", since I obviously have doubts about the existence of a god,
I feel that this is merely introspection. Again, it works for
some people if they believe it is god, when in reality it is
their own introspection.
I would certainly not suggest that anyone who doesn't believe in a god
ought to pray to one. I think I would be insulted if you were to tell
me in the middle of a conversation that I wasn't there. (Note that I
am not claiming to know how God would react to such an action).
If you assume that there is no god, then the conclusion that prayer
is really introspection is logical. But I thought that the question
we were trying to deal with is whether or not that assumption is
correct.
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RR:
If the Lord helps those who help themselves, isn't prayer just
a methodology for getting yourself in the frame of mind to
help yourself?
GMS:
The statement that the Lord helps those who help themselves is not
biblical, as far as I know. It is often used as a copout as to why
someone should not be obligated to help another.
RR:
Agreed. I think the statement is indeed biblical, though, and
is a perfect example of quoting the bible to suit one's needs.
Why do you think that the statement is biblical? What passages have
you read to substantiate that belief? Or do you think it is biblical
just because you have heard it repeated so often by people who should
know? That happens frequently; someone expounds an idea which sounds
good (to that person) and it gets repeated so often that people
finally assume it's biblical, when in fact it is not. Or is this
simply a perfect example of misquoting the bible to suit one's needs?
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GMS:
If a person believes that there is really a god out there listening
to prayers, and that that god is able and willing to guide us in
some way, then prayer is more than a method of altering one's frame
of mind. Prayer does in fact alter one's frame of mind, but it
does more. What you seem to call prayer I would call 'meditation'
or 'contemplation'. How God answers prayer is another subject
about which volumes have been written.
RLR:
Your paragraph assumes the existence of the god in question, which
is of course where we differ. My opinions on the non-existence of
god have already been put forth and explained.
Your opinion of prayer follows logically from your opinions on the
non-existence of god. But you seemed to be reversing the argument;
i.e., you seemed to be saying that since prayer is really introspection,
there is no god.
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RLR:
If god existed, why would I be obliged to understand myself
in relation to it? Do you (or I) establish understanding about
our relationships to every single thing in the universe?
You constantly assume that god must hold some special position
of authority (specifically over you and all other people).
Why? This is YOUR assumption (desire?) about the nature of
god (not necessarily his :-). Think about it. Why does god have
to be the way you picture it? Where have you seen evidence that
shows this?
You claim that even if there were a god, you would have no
interest in learning about him? (her?) (it?) If you found
out that there was another form of sapient life, wouldn't
you want to learn about it? If you found out that there
was a non-physical form of life, wouldn't you want to learn
about it? It seems clear that your lack of interest in god
is based on your ASSUMPTION that there isn't one.
As for a special position of authority, God holds that by
reason of being Creator. Wouldn't that give him some sort
of special position?
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RLR:
Only the god you choose to believe in is perfect. Human beings
are not. (Is this another reason that you feel that there must
be a god?)
True, true, and that may be a factor. I'm not sure. I'm willing
to admit that I have both rational and non-rational reasons for
believing in God. Will you make a similar admission?
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RLR:
Experiments like democracy are the ways that people
try to establish their own guidelines and rights without external
imposition.
It sounds like a good idea; where can I find a democracy to see
how it works?
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RLR:
To believe the bible as the ultimate arbiter of people's
rights is to impose your arbitrary standards on everyone.
Why?
I suppose an arbiter is by definition arbitrary :-). Seriously,
I'm not sure I do believe the bible is an arbiter of people's
rights. The bible doesn't say much about rights (which deals
with how others should treat me); it says a lot about
responsibilities (which deals with how I should treat others).
As has been said before (and I don't want to start up another
copy of that argument), "imposing standards" is what society
and law are all about. All laws impose standards; the question
is (or should be), Are the standards right, or appropriate, or
practical, or effective, etc. To say, "You are trying to impose
your standards," only means that you and I don't advocate the
same standards. (Note that I do not admit that they are "my
standards;" by which I mean I didn't invent them.)
Gary Samuelson