jack@hp-dcde.UUCP (11/30/83)
#N:hp-dcde:25000003:000:359 hp-dcde!jack Nov 27 18:53:00 1983 While shopping today, I picked up some Yoplait Custard-Style Yogurt. It was marked with a K (not a U in a circle). Among the ingredients were listed: Skim Milk Solids Colored with Beef Fat extracts (definitely Beef Fat something) Now, doesn't this violate the rule about Kosher food not mixing milk & meat? -Jack Applin (hplabs!hp-dcd!jack)
smb@ulysses.UUCP (12/02/83)
From: jack@hp-dcde.UUCP Subject: milk & meat - (nf) Message-ID: <2622@hp-pcd.UUCP> Date: Wed, 30-Nov-83 03:35:18 EST Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO While shopping today, I picked up some Yoplait Custard-Style Yogurt. It was marked with a K (not a U in a circle). Among the ingredients were listed: Skim Milk Solids Colored with Beef Fat extracts (definitely Beef Fat something) Now, doesn't this violate the rule about Kosher food not mixing milk & meat? -Jack Applin (hplabs!hp-dcd!jack) It would certainly seem to. There are a few possible explanations other than a mistake (we'll discount fraudulent intent), though. First, a substance derived from an animal product can be sufficiently far from its origins that it is considered a chemical, and no longer a meat product. For example, most hard cheeses are cured with animal rennet, yet most Conservative Jewish authorities consider such cheeses kosher. Exactly where the line is drawn varies, of course, depending on your rabbi. Some Orthodox rabbis agree with this reasoning, but insist that the rennet must come from a kosher, ritually slaughtered animal. To quote the First Jewish Catalog (an excellent book): List of chemical additives, which, besdies probably poisoning your body, may be unkosher. Depending on what rabbit or authority you ask and what positions you adhere to, some of the following may be treif [unkosher] for you. The best policy is to consult a rabbit who likes to eat the same things you do. Mono-glyceride Glycine Di-glyceride Emulsifiers Stearates Gelatin Stearic acid Lipids Softeners Rennet Argol Pepsin A second possible explanation is that the particular K in question may not be a kashruth symbol. The Kraft logo, for example, is easily confused with a indication that the product is kosher. Nor can the use of K be restricted, as letters of the alphabet are not copyrightable.
keesan@bbncca.ARPA (Morris Keesan) (12/02/83)
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1) I don't have my copy of The Jewish Catalogue handy, but I'd be very
surprised if it recommends consulting a rabbit. Amusing typo, though.
Reminds me of a joke where a wife is trying to subtly tell her husband
she's pregnant, and he thinks she's telling him the rabbi died.
2) It was only very recently (some time between 1971 and 1977) that the
American Conservative rabbis' organization decided that rennet is far
enough removed from its origins to make hard cheeses kosher.
3) I think that the most likely explanation for the "K" on the Yoplait yogurt
is Steven Bellovin's suggestion that it's not a kashrut symbol, but some
other indication like the Kraft logo. It is for this reason that many
Orthodox authorities recommend not accepting the K as a kashrut symbol at
all, but only buying food that you know is approved by an accepted
rabbinical group, such as the Union of Orthodox Rabbis, which owns the
U in a circle symbol. I remember reading a pamphlet once which said you
should only buy food if it's approved by a rabbi who is known to you, like
matzoh "prepared under the supervision of Rabbi So-and-so."
Morris M. Keesan
{decvax,linus,wjh12}!bbncca!keesan
keesan @ BBN-UNIX.ARPAariels@orca.UUCP (Ariel Shattan) (12/03/83)
They should grow like onions, with their heads in the ground!
Fortunately, most people who care about kashrut know that the K is
no sign of a kosher product. Circle-U, Circle-K, Star-K are all
registered trademarks; registered by groups who oversee kashrut in
products. No-one can register a letter of the alphabet. Manufacturers
have taken it upon themselves to put the K on te lable when a
product is not directly non-kosher (no animal shortening, gelatin,
or other animal products usually makes them feel a K is called for).
Yoplait has taken it upon themselves to declare their product kosher. with
this product, they are lying! I suspect that some of their products
meet the K standard, and they figured, therefore, that they could
put the K on all their goods.
Those who care about a "hechshur" (certification) know what to look
for. Those who care about marginal kashrut (don't need a hechshur,
but don't want to eat non-kosher directly) should read the
ingredients lable. Never trust a K, because it doesn't mean a thing
legally, so a manufacturer could lie, and never be liable.
Some of the more popular hechshurs:
Circle-U: Union of Orthodox Rabbis
CRC: Chicago Rabinical Council (not related to the CRC handbooks!)
Circle-K: some conservative rabinic group hechshur (not to be
confused with the Kraft logo; hexagon-K)
Then there's always a personal hechshur from a rabbi you know and
trust. most of the Israeli products have these, as do many of the
"traditional Jewish" products like Manashevitz, Goodman's, Mother's,
Streit's, and so on.
Kashrut for passover is another matter entirely. See your local
rabbi for an interpretation. I'm getting tired of typing!
Chanukah Sameach (that's Happy Chanukah), folks
Ariel Shattan
decvax!tektronix!tekecs!arielsbch@unc.UUCP (12/04/83)
Well, folks, while doing seasonal shopping today I happened to look closely at a carton of Yo Plait Custard-Style Yoghurt. Boy, has this been a tempest in a teapot (or more properly a yoghurt cup.) The K on the package does, indeed, indicate Kosher and there is no doubt from the ingredients list that the yoghurt is quite Kosher. It seems that the coloring agent is taken from BEET extract, not BEEF extract. (*sigh*) -- Byron Howes UNC - Chapel Hill decvax!duke!mcnc!unc!bch
dave@utcsrgv.UUCP (Dave Sherman) (12/04/83)
>> From: smb@ulysses.UUCP (Steve Bellovin) >> For example, most hard cheeses are cured with animal >> rennet, yet most Conservative Jewish authorities consider such cheeses >> kosher. Exactly where the line is drawn varies, of course, depending >> on your rabbi. Some Orthodox rabbis agree with this reasoning, but >> insist that the rennet must come from a kosher, ritually slaughtered >> animal. *** FLAME ON *** Sorry, Steve, you can't do that. You can *not* refer to Conservative rabbis (let alone rabbits :-) ) to determine whether something is kosher. Kashrut is determined by halachic considerations which are objective standards and have not changed in over a thousand years. The Conservative movement rejects much of halachah as not necessary and "not applying to today's times". You are quite welcome to say that Conservative rabbis will give you permission to eat X, Y or Z. They also give you permission to drive on the Sabbath. So what? That does not change the halachah, and it cannot make a treife item kosher. If someone wants to be less observant, that's their decision and I have no objection. But don't claim that the religion allows something when it doesn't. (flame off) As to the specific argument, yes, it is possible that ingredients which pass through an inedible state are not treife, as I mentioned in an earlier article. This does not apply to cheese, however: the only kosher hard cheeses are the ones specifically manufactured with kosher rennet (Migdal, Haolom, Liberty, Great Canadian, and a couple of others whose names escape me at the moment). -- {allegra,cornell,decvax,ihnp4,linus,utzoo}!utcsrgv!dave
smb@ulysses.UUCP (12/05/83)
From: dave@utcsrgv.UUCP Subject: Re: milk & meat - (nf) Message-ID: <2884@utcsrgv.UUCP> Date: Sun, 4-Dec-83 09:19:13 EST >> From: smb@ulysses.UUCP (Steve Bellovin) >> For example, most hard cheeses are cured with animal >> rennet, yet most Conservative Jewish authorities consider such cheeses >> kosher. Exactly where the line is drawn varies, of course, depending >> on your rabbi. Some Orthodox rabbis agree with this reasoning, but >> insist that the rennet must come from a kosher, ritually slaughtered >> animal. *** FLAME ON *** Sorry, Steve, you can't do that. You can *not* refer to Conservative rabbis (let alone rabbits :-) ) to determine whether something is kosher. Kashrut is determined by halachic considerations which are objective standards and have not changed in over a thousand years. The Conservative movement rejects much of halachah as not necessary and "not applying to today's times". You are quite welcome to say that Conservative rabbis will give you permission to eat X, Y or Z. They also give you permission to drive on the Sabbath. So what? That does not change the halachah, and it cannot make a treife item kosher. If someone wants to be less observant, that's their decision and I have no objection. But don't claim that the religion allows something when it doesn't. (flame off) The issue here is the validity of the Conservative rabbinate. The Orthodox position has always been that the Conservative rabbis are at best wrong, and at worst leading others into sin. The Conservative view is that they are continuing the process of interpretation of the Law in the tradition of the Talmudists of 2000 years ago. The Orthodox view is -- as you and I have both pointed out -- that the oral law was handed down on Mt. Sinai, and is of equal authority and inerrancy; consequently, any new contradictory interpretations are obviously wrong. I don't accept this, and I'm hardly alone in that. But this is a long and complex issue which I'm too tired to discuss at length at the moment. It's really the same issue as the "Biblical inerrancy" debate in several Christian denominations, in fact. In any event, your flame is somewhat misplaced; my note was intended to be educational and point out what *some* rabbis believe. As to the specific argument, yes, it is possible that ingredients which pass through an inedible state are not treife, as I mentioned in an earlier article. This does not apply to cheese, however: the only kosher hard cheeses are the ones specifically manufactured with kosher rennet (Migdal, Haolom, Liberty, Great Canadian, and a couple of others whose names escape me at the moment). I'm pretty sure of my facts here; I'm basing my statements on conversations I've had with Orthodox rabbis and on some material that quite coincidentally arrived this week from a local synagogue. Let me be more precise about the Conservative position on cheese: any cheese manufactured under the juris- diction of the U.S. Pure Food and Drug Act (i.e., any US-made cheese) is considered kosher, because (a) rennet is not considered a food, and (b) Federal supervision is sufficient to prevent adulteration with other treife sub- stances. The Orthodox do not accept this because (a) they insist that the rennet must come from a kosher animal; and (b) they insist on rabbinic super- vision. If you accept the validity of the Conservative rabbinate -- and many do -- then most cheeses are kosher. --Steve Bellovin P.S. I imagine that those of you who have consulted rabbits instead of rabbits have found that carrots are indeed kosher...