ariels@orca.UUCP (11/17/83)
Actually, according to tradition (Jewish Talmudic traditon, that is), each son of Adam and Chava (Eve) had a twin sister that he later married. These people were not guilty of incest, because God had not yet listed incest as a sin. (The same goes for a number of liasons later in B'reshit (Genesis)). After all, how were they to know it was wrong if no-one told them? Ariel (I don't know WHAT they're teaching in schools these days) Shattan decvax!tektronix!tekecs!ariels
jsq@ut-sally.UUCP (John Quarterman) (11/20/83)
How come nobody's mentioned Lilith yet? She was supposedly around
before Eve and had children by Adam before being banished from the
garden for excessive lustfulness or some such. She is a Jewish folktale:
surely somebody out there knows the whole story?
--
John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas
{ihnp4,seismo,kpno,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq, jsq@ut-sally.{ARPA,UUCP}smb@ulysses.UUCP (11/21/83)
From: jsq@ut-sally.UUCP
Subject: Re: The offspring of Adam and Chava
Message-ID: <438@ut-sally.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 20-Nov-83 13:00:34 EST
References: <1310@burdvax.UUCP> <323@orca.UUCP>
How come nobody's mentioned Lilith yet? She was supposedly around
before Eve and had children by Adam before being banished from the
garden for excessive lustfulness or some such. She is a Jewish folktale:
surely somebody out there knows the whole story?
--
John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas
{ihnp4,seismo,kpno,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq, jsq@ut-sally.{ARPA,UUCP}
Ah yes, Lilith. Lilith is portrayed as a demon in Jewish folklore. She
is identified with sexuality, often portrayed as a succuba (a female demon
that has sexual intercourse with men while they sleep), and is thought to
be a special threat to uncircumcised male infants, and female infants less
than three weeks old. Even today, superstitious Jews will hang special
amulets, inscriptions, etc., to protect infants from her. (My sister's
ex-mother-in-law, a flake in many other ways as well, insisted that my
sister follow such customs, at least for her son.)
According to some Jewish traditions, Lilith was created contemporaneously
with Adam, out of dust. But she refused to be properly submissive, and
hence was banished -- and only after that was Chava (a.k.a. Eve) created
from Adam's rib. Some versions of the tale have Adam trying to rape her
when she refused to submit to him; enraged, she left and had a good time
behaving promiscuously with assorted demons. Some angels were sent to
retrieve her; she refused to return, pointing out that she could hardly
be a proper wife after her fling. Besides, she preferred her independence.
[This version is from "The Alphabet of Ben Sira", a Jewish work of the 10th
century C.E., as recounted in "Women and Judaism: Myth, History, and
Struggle", by Roslyn Lacks. Lacks presents -- from a strongly feminist
perspective -- many aspects of the Lilith legend, ranging from Lilith-like
characters in the Epic of Gilgamesh to modern retellings. Lilith has been
adopted as a symbol by some modern Jewish feminists; there was even a magazine
of that name published -- anyone know if it still exists.]
The only Biblical reference to Lilith is Isiah 34:14; some, however, see
the creation of Lilith in the first telling of the story of creation in
Genesis: "male and female He created them". It's only in the second telling,
where Adam is clearly on the scene first, that the rib enters, and Eve is
pictured as being created from Adam. (The story of the rib is itself
fascinating. First, the Hebrew word for Eve -- Chava -- is felt by some
to be a mistranscription of Chaya, meaning "life" or "living". (The Hebrew
letter Y is a short vertical stroke; the V is a long vertical stroke -- easy
to confuse.) It turns out that the Sumerian word TI means *both* "rib" and
"living", and there is a woman NIN.TI in a Sumerian Paradise myth. The play
on words in the Sumerian myth is apparently deliberate, but could easily
have caused confusion. Again, see Lacks' book.)
There's plenty more in Lacks' book, and I'd be glad to summarize it if
anyone's interested. For example, some early amulets to ward off Lilith
included a *get*, a Jewish bill of divorce. The whole legend is replete
with sexuality and repressed sexuality, and it isn't hard at all to see
why that alone would qualify Lilith as a feminist image, even without the
story of her reaction to Adam.speaker@umcp-cs.UUCP (11/23/83)
These people were not guilty of incest, because God had not yet listed incest as a sin. (The same goes for a number of liasons later in B'reshit (Genesis)). After all, how were they to know it was wrong if no-one told them? Was murder listed as a sin at that time? If not why was Cain outcast for slaying his brother? I hope this version agrees the Talmud. I guess murder was generally recognized as a sin. -- - Bessie the Hellcow speaker@umcp-cs speaker.umcp-cs@CSnet-Relay
smb@ulysses.UUCP (Steven Bellovin) (11/23/83)
Jewish tradition lists seven (?) sins as "obvious" to anyone as a violation of natural law. These include some that really are obvious, like murder, and some that are not, like idolatry. I don't believe that incest is in the list, though I could be wrong. (As a sidelight, the Jewish view is that non-Jews are bound only by these seven laws; the full set of Biblical com- mandments applies only to Jews.)
speaker@umcp-cs.UUCP (11/27/83)
As a sidelight, the Jewish view is that non-Jews are bound only by these seven laws; the full set of Biblical commandments applies only to Jews. Does this view have scriptural basis or is it just generally recognized by Jews? If God gave legitimacy to this view very early on... then it lets non-Jews "off the hook" for a number of things widely regarded as sinfull. -- - Bessie the Hellcow speaker@umcp-cs speaker.umcp-cs@CSnet-Relay
elwell@cwruecmp.UUCP (Clayton Elwell) (11/29/83)
If God gave legittimacy to this view very early on... then
it lets non-Jews "off the hook" for a number of things
widely regarded as sinfull [sic].
Last time I knew, Christians were supposed to abide by both the Mosaic
laws @i[and] the (few) laws stated in the Gospels. Granted, I know very
few who do...
Clayton Elwell
...{usenet}!decvax!cwruecmp!elwell
ARPA: Elwell%Case@Rand-Relay
CSnet: Elwell@Caseariels@orca.UUCP (Ariel Shattan) (11/29/83)
If you interpret the Bible as Jews have interpreted it for the past 1000 or so years (and maybe before that), non-Jews are only required to follow those 7 laws (known as the 7 laws of the children of Noah). However, If you are interpreting the Jewish way, you have to count as Jewish every person born of a Jewish woman (and a Jewish woman is one who's mother was Jewish, etc on down the line).
smb@ulysses.UUCP (12/09/83)
Several people have written asking me about the seven "Noachic Commandments" -- the laws that non-Jews are bound by, according to Jewish tradition. They're derived from Genesis 9:1-7 (some are more obvious derivations than others). The following is from Hertz commentary on the Torah: Rabbinic interpretation of these verses deduced seven fundamental laws from them: viz. (1) the establishment of courts of justice; (2) the prohibition of blasphemy; (3) of idolatry; (4) of incest; (5) of bloodshed; (6) of robbery; (7) of eating flesh cut from a living animal. The Rabbis called these seven laws the 'Seven Commandments given to the descendants of Noah'. These constitute what we might call Natural Religion, as they are vital to the existence of human society. Whereas an Israelite was to carry out all the precepts of the Torah [Five Books of Moses], obedience to these Seven Commandments alone was in ancient times required of non-Jews living among Israelites, or attaching themselves to the Jewish community. These laws are supposed to be pretty obvious to anyone; numbers 2 and 3 would seem to be somewhat less so.