ahearn@parsec.UUCP (11/30/83)
#R:reed:-39400:parsec:45700005:000:935 parsec!ahearn Nov 29 11:37:00 1983 In response to Gil Moskowitz (29 Nov): I think there is an obvious correlation between the kosher laws and personal health. The practice of basing the diet around animal food has created an epidemic of suffering in the forms of cancer, heart disease, organ dysfunction, etc. Whatever other reasons the Jewish fathers had for their dietary practices, I can assure you that their habit of eating vegetables and grains kept them much healthier than they otherwise would have been. If you don't believe me, read the Book of Daniel. Eating a grain- centered diet was obviously of crucial importance to Daniel, and he seemed to believe that his visionary experiences depended on his diet. I am not Jewish, so I am perhaps speaking out of turn. However, it seems obvious to me that a kosher diet will dramatically improve health AND enable us to utilize the food chain more responsibly. Thanks for your comments. Regards, Joe Ahearn
trb@masscomp.UUCP (Andy Tannenbaum) (11/30/83)
In response to Gil Moskowitz (29 Nov), Joe Ahern states: I think there is an obvious correlation between the kosher laws and personal health. and he goes on to give a perfectly reasonable sounding explanation concerning dietary causes of human ill health. Makes pretty good sense, what? Problem here is that just because a solution makes pretty good sense, and just because there's an obvious correlation, doesn't in the least mean that the kosher laws are based on personal health practices. Consider: Take a nice healthy piece of 8x11 paper. For instance, rip ranlib(1) out of your UNIX manual, it should be built into ar anyway. Now crumple it up in your fist, tight. Now sit the wad on a table. Watch it strain and crinkle to rebound, you'd almost think that it was alive. Set it afire. Watch it writhe and blacken in apparent agony. Is the clump of paper alive? There is an apparent correlation. Scientists have called lesser evidence a "sign of life." My point here is that the kosher laws are Jewish laws, just the same way that auto speed limits are municipal (or whatever) laws. They are not based on Truth, they are simply there. They live within their system. The system of municipal law says that there is a set process for changing the speeding laws. Jewish law says that the Jewish laws are not based on practical considerations; you follow them because you are a Jew and because Jews follow the Jewish laws. This blathering about practical considerations has no basis in Jewish law and I defy anyone to show me evidence to the contrary. Sorry to get so abrupt, but it's a bit tiresome to see people making up Jewish law. Note that there are rabbis around who stretch the law for their own (or their assimilated congregants') purposes, I call it the "Rabbi Siegal makes it Legal" school of Judaism, and that doesn't count as evidence. Andy Tannenbaum Masscomp Inc Westford MA (617) 692-6200 x274
emjej@uokvax.UUCP (12/02/83)
#R:reed:-39400:uokvax:8300018:000:246 uokvax!emjej Nov 30 20:46:00 1983 Concerning the reason behind Jewish dietary constraints: interested folks should consult David Kahn's *The Codebreakers*, in the chapter entitled "Ancestral Voices." The section on decipherment of Ugaritic texts is fascinating. James Jones
gil@reed.UUCP (Moskowitz) (12/07/83)
To Andy Tannenbaum-
Yes, Jewish Law is there to be obeyed just
as speed laws are there to be obeyed. But there
is a reason for the existence of those speed laws,
and there are probably reasons for the existence
of the Jewish laws. Various discussions as to
what they are and why they exist took place in
the fourth (?) century, in the writing down of the
Gemmarah. If others could discuss the laws,
why cannot we? True those men were great scholars,
but how did they become so but by questioning
and looking at all of the evidence they had.
So we must question and come up with our own
answers, to live the way we feel most comfortable
with our own beliefs, Jewish or not. If one
is Jewish, one is expected to at least be
aware of the laws, and if one finds personal
reasons to follow them which do not have 'official
sanction,' who are we to say no? Why does it
matter as long as no harm is done to other people
and one is happy with ones choice(s)?
Gil Moskowitztrb@masscomp.UUCP (Andy Tannenbaum) (12/09/83)
Gil Moskowitz asks: If one is Jewish, one is expected to at least be aware of the laws, and if one finds personal reasons to follow them which do not have 'official sanction,' who are we to say no? Why does it matter as long as no harm is done to other people and one is happy with ones choice(s)? In my opinion, certainly NO ONE has the right to control the personal practices of another (unless those practices infringe on another's personal rights, etc). I never said anything of the sort. My point once again, short and sweet: Judaism dictates a set of rules. You can follow them and be in accord with Jewish law. You can choose to not follow them and not be in accord with Jewish law. You cannot not follow them and be in accord with Jewish law, to take this tack is a shallow masquerade. I choose to not follow many Jewish laws, and I don't pretend that I've got special dispensation and that it's ok by Jewish standards. Again, as I've said before, to tell the net readers that Jewish laws are based on health practises or other customs is not in accord with historical mainstream Jewish belief. The organized relaxed non-observance of Jewish law is not more than 100 years old, and is a step away from religious observance. Making up your own rules as you go along is a charade, I can't respect a system which allows such games. To say that Jewish belief condones such charades is misleading to the uninformed (re Jewish law) readers in netland. That's where the harm is and that's why it matters (to answer Gil's question). Note well that I'm not saying (and have never said) that a Jew who doesn't observe the Jewish laws is any less a Jew. No Jew is any more a Jew than any other, just as no person is any more a person than any other. I'm just talking about my aversion to making up rules as you go along. Andy Tannenbaum Masscomp Inc Westford MA (617) 692-6200 x274
yudelson@aecom.UUCP (Larry Yudelson) (12/12/83)
While Gil has the right to find reasons for the mitzvot (Jewish laws), it must be kept in mind that they are no more than his reasons. In fact, the Talmud does not, in most cases, say why a law is, but deals rather with the the way it is to be observed. (I qualified that statement, but I cannot think of any exceptions.) "Ta'amei haMitzvot", explanations of the Commandments, only became popular in the Middle Ages--Maimonides, etc.