crane@fortune.UUCP (John Crane) (12/10/83)
Dear Tim et al:
Unlike you, I am going to start my reply on a positive note. You
disagreed with nearly everything I said. However, I read what your
reply and indeed found something I could agree with.
Such nonsense only confirms the opinions of those who
think that occultists desire nothing more than to become
the last survivor of Krypton, when in fact the goal is a
willed self-transformation into a being which is
superior due not to its "powers", but because of its
beauty -- BECAUSE OF WHAT IT IS, NOT WHAT IT CAN DO.
(emphasis mine)
You made a very good point. The main reason for increasing ability is
not to do side show stunts or going around zapping people who don't
agree, but it is to increase one's own awareness and enjoyment of life
and to help oneself and others (IF THEY WANT TO BE HELPED, IF NOT BUTT
OUT). Hopefully, groups of such beings could get together and find
some common interests. Also, as you said, it is to create a thing of
beauty. I would also add: "Because its there to be had".
As longtime readers of the group know, I feel that
humans have attained to the status of gods in this
century. We can devastate cities in a microsecond, send
our voices across millions of miles, reap vast and
profitable harvests, fly, create new forms of matter,
pry behind the scenes of the very nature of events, and
so on. These developments propel us into the world of
the gods whether we want it or not, and our morals must
be worthy of gods or horror and chaos will surely
result. If human history continues as it has, we will
surely die before another century passes. We must
change if we are to survive our forced technological
apotheosis.
Our morals do indeed need to catch up with our technology, but I the
gods don't need technology to do what they do.
I would have expected a rebuttal to my intuitive arguments to be
couched in logic and reason instead of labels, name-camming, and
emotional rhetoric, especially comming from an educated person. If I
am wrong, SHOW WHERE and HOW I'M WRONG. How can you make your point
when you don't use logical argument but instead lace your text with
heavily emotion-laden references:
"
naive and vain feelings
comic books
you must be kidding
mental poison
nonsense
pseudo-scientific gimp
bosh
grandiose daydream nature of your religion
unashamed egotism and wish-fulfillment
gag
"
If were are going to talk mysticism and intuitition, lets talk
mysticism and intuition. If we're going to talk logic, lets talk
logic. Or lets play the game I was playing called "I'll tell you what
I believe and you tell me what you believe." Your emotional attacks
are uncalled-for. I know now what you DON'T believe. So, what DO you
believe? It is worth sharing with the rest of us? Do you believe in
ANYTHING POSITIVE or is your religion to go around putting down other
people's beliefs and/or philosophies and/or knowledge?
By the way, I'm sorry if you got the impression that I was advocating
any of the beliefs I cited. The original letter called from some
discuccion on the subject "Thou art God". I merely thought it might
be interesting to point out that not only do I think there is
something to that philosophy, but that there are millions of other
people out there who share the same views.
I, however, do not use those views as my personal basis for belief. I
don't have to. My religion is what I observe -- with the natural
senses and with what so-called "phychic" (meaning spiritual) senses I
have developed up to this point. I don't think a person can argue
anybody into a belief. If so, somebody else can argue him out.
What's true for a person is what that person actually believes is true
and nothing else.
The fun in the scenarios you have pictured is not in
being omnipotent, but in being more powerful than most
humans. Seen in this light, the grandiose daydream
nature of your religion is embarassingly obvious. There
is nothing wrong with grandiose daydreams -- like many
people, I have them not infrequently -- but there is
something wrong with elevating them to the status of
religion and making them a large thing in your life. My
suggestion that you take up fantasy role-playing games
was serious -- it would provide you with an outlet for
your fantasies, which are not bad in and of themselves,
and keep them from poisoning your religious views.
You have your fun and I'll have mine. But don't you define for me
what I could possibly gain from any philosophy! I don't like being
second-guessed. You set up a straw man and then procede to knock it
down. Not the kind of logic you'd expect from an educated person.
MAKE it a Good Day!
John Crane
Fortune Systems, Inc.
Redwood City, CAlaura@utcsstat.UUCP (Laura Creighton) (12/11/83)
Me here. As usual, I agree with Tim. What difference does it make if one develops psychic powers of if one develops technical powers (assuming that both are possible)? How does power actually *get* you anything? I think that power is only attractive when it protects you from things. This means that any attempt to get *real*, *personal*, power stems from insecurity. This is not, in itself, a terrible thing, since I have yet to meet somebody who is not insecure to some extent, though I am quite sure that they have and do exist. Everybody considers "what would I do if I could do whatever I wanted" sometimes. Everybody tries to protect themselves from other people to some extent (again, though I am perfectly willing to admit that this is not the only way it can be). The problem comes in designing a religion to comfort the insecure. If you read any 'history of religions and war' type book you will notice a frightening co-relation between religions which get used to comfort the insecure and horrible acts. If you look around you will see that the Christians who think that "place all your trust in Jesus and your problems will go away" is the keynoter of Christianity have a very different flavour than the "whosoever wants to save his sould must lose it" crowd. Or, if you would rather not read about Christianity, try -- "Buddhism goes to Japan and becomes entangled with the Samuri", a wonderful example of how you can take "what you want" from a religion. I still do not know how you can put the arts of war into a religion that had stressed not killing any animal or insect (let alone a human being), but the Japanese found a way. I have been able to find this trend in every single religion I have looked at. The religion becomes "established", and gets used as a crutch for insecurity, rather than a vehicle for spiritual growth. The results are very frightening. What I believe you were proposing was personal power for the placation of insecurities. This strikes me as horrible in the extreme. Power, contrary to polpular belief, does not make you secure -- just more jealous of your power. We are tons more powerful today than we ever were (just look at them nukes!) and I haven't noticed any great decrease in insecurity. Thus this is the old trick of the worm Orobous eating his tail -- in ammassing power to try to become more secure you need more power to become more secure you need....) The usefulness in such exercises is to discover that they are futile and stop. Bootstrapping yourself into Godhood won't work. If you are a God then you are a God *now* with all that that entails. If you are a God then there is no need to be insecure. However, there is a great need to understand how to be a moral God. I have a simple test for Gods. I ask them "what would they like to do if they could do anything". If your answer comes back as something other than "make everyone else Gods" or "end world hunger", then I think that your Godhood is based on insecurity -- and you are still caught biting your own tail. laura creighton utzoo!utcsstat!laura
crane@fortune.UUCP (12/14/83)
You set up a beautiful straw man (wanting power as a cure for insecurity) and then procede to knock it down. Aside from that I think all your points are well taken, especially your tests for godhood. As for bootstrapping oneself into godhood, I like the point you make. You really can't put something there that's not there already. But a person CAN discover and develop his LATENT and HERETOFOR UNKNOWN abilities.