tim@unc.UUCP (Tim Maroney) (01/08/84)
[ from Pamela Troy ] A recent article from Dave Norris, noted for his colorful regurgitatory metaphors in relation to others' work: 1. God does not condemn anyone to eternal torment who has not made that choice already. You don't have to go, you know. God has condemned Tim Maroney to eternal torment because Tim Maroney wants to go there instead of heaven (see final paragraph on Pride). You may as well blame the rock when it falls on your head because you didn't move, or the professor who gives you an "F" because you didn't turn in a term paper. The Romans did not condemn anyone to the lions who had not made that choice already, by your apparent definition. They didn't have to go, you know. The Romans condemned Christians to the lions because the Christians wanted to be tortured and killed rather than renounce their faith. It was all those silly Christians' fault. I'm glad Dave Norris has cleared things up for me. No longer do I feel sorry for all those foolish gentiles who died because they were base enough not to embrace Nazism. They could have followed Hitler, and at least have a better chance of surviving the war, but noooooo... They "chose" to walk into concentration camps. The same goes for Solzhenitsyn. Where I originally respected him as a man willing to sacrifice himself for his convictions, I now see that he WANTED to go to the Gulag. His diatribes against the Soviet system are just silly. He may as well blame a professor for giving him an F for not turning in a term paper. I would really like Dave Norris to expand on his idea of what is voluntary and what is not. Using his definition, the Jews tortured into renouncing their faith during the Inquisition did so voluntarily. They could, after all, have opted for a long, horrible death. Every time I think that I might be getting a little paranoid about Christians taking control of the government, an article like this comes along. When a person cannot tell the difference between doing something voluntarily and being coerced into it, I think I have good reason to worry. So, I will try to explain to Dave what the difference is. If someone tells me, "Please go out with me. I like you and would like to get to know you better," my decision to date the guy is voluntary. There are no dire consequences in store for me if I don't. If, however, someone tells me, "Go out with me, or I'll lock you in my closet and keep you there forever and beat you every hour," my decision is NOT voluntary. Especially if I know that it is within his power to back up his threats! I sincerely doubt that a cop finding my ravaged body tied up in the closet weeks later would say, "Well, it was her own choice." Tim said: You hear a lot from Christians about Yahweh's "infinite compassion and mercy". Tell it to the Midianites. Numbers 31 is a classic example of wholesale slaughter and rape under the direction of Yahweh. A sample of this delightful tale: "They waged the campaign against Midian, as Yahweh had ordered Moses, and they put every male to death.... The sons of Israel took the Midianite women captive with their young children, and plundered all their cattle, all their flocks and all their goods. They set fire to the towns where they lived and all their encampments.... Moses was enraged with the commanders of the army ... who had come back from this military expedition. He said, 'Why have you spared the life of all the women? ... So kill all the male children. Kill also all the women who have slept with a man. Spare the lives only of the young girls who have not slept with a man, and take them for yourselves.'" Yes, friends, this is infinite mercy and compassion for you. I particularly like the way that Moses got upset with them for sparing women and male children, but allowed the young girls to be kept for later raping. If only humans could keep to such lofty standards without the necessity of divine revelation. To which, your brilliant reply: Again, out of context. You have created your own reasons why God commanded the destruction of the Midianites; chapter 25 (a few pages back) explains that they were vile people, responsible for the Baal-peor orgy. In 25:2 "They called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods." The subject (they) is feminine, and refers to the daughters of Moab, with whom the men of Israel committed fornication (this method was used to weaken Israel by Balak, with Balaam's advice; see Rev 2:14). The Baal cult had festivals which dramatized the mating of Baal with the goddess of fertility. Archeological discoveries reveal that prostitution was practiced as part of their worship. This seems like a harsh judgement, but God is actually choosing the lesser of two evils. The alternative was to allow the Midianites to live and corrupt (and thereby destroy) Israel. And read Jeremiah 19:5, where we discover that the Midianites sacrificed their children to the god Baal. Is this what you are defending? Give me Yahweh any day. It seems like a "harsh judgement"? Dave, you old softie! If these women were fornicating they DESERVED to be hacked into tiny bits, and so did their kids. Their female children DESERVED to be raped. Yes. I'm shocked, I must say, at the behaviour of those evil Midianites. Sacrificed their children, you say? Of course, we only have the Israelites word on that, and they obviously did not like the Midianites, but for the sake of argument, I'll assume this is true. Shocking! Why, obviously it was not the Midianites' place to kill Midianite children when Moses was willing to do it himself. Obviously, too, the children of Israel were telling the truth when they claimed their enemies sacrificed babies, but the people who said that about the early Christians were lying. Seriously, though, I am appalled that anyone could find a "context" in which the wholesale slaughter of women and children is justifiable. If this is what you are defending, give me Kuan Yin, Apollo, or Diana any day! Pamela Troy -- Tim Maroney, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill duke!unc!tim (USENET), tim.unc@csnet-relay (ARPA)