ewp@ihuxn.UUCP (01/17/84)
Bryon, I don't think the Bible is ambiguous on the idea of more than one god. To avoid niggling, I'd be willing to allow that possibility, although I don't think that changes the argument. I was going on the premise (as stated) that the god the Christians call God, created (at least through our ancestors) everyone on the net. I don't think the Bible is ambiguous on this. That being the case, we cannot judge the Creator's actions on the same basis that we judge our fellow creature's actions, regardless of any social structure we devise among ourselves. Royalty or peasantry, a human is still a human. Unless you claim to be one of the other gods..... Ed Pawlak ihnp4!ihuxn!ewp
bch@unc.UUCP (Byron Howes ) (01/17/84)
What we are banging against here is a fundamental dichotomy in western religious philosophy. On the one hand we have those, whom you seem to represent, who renounce human judgement in the face of G-d's majesty. (What reply can I give thee, I who carry no weight? Job 40:4) This is certainly in the tradition of Judaism, Christianity and Islam (and probably Zoroastriansim.) On the other we have those, like myself, who stand by the human principles they have been taught and insist on judging our gods. Certainly the intellectual traditions of the Greeks, Romans, Celts and Germanic tribes. This doesn't add anything but certainly indicates that many before us have been here before. My response to the initial question, "What right have we to judge G-d?" was twofold: (1) We have the right to judge because we have been given the right to judge and asked to use it. At all points in the Bible man is asked to discern right from wrong, good from evil, sin from blessing, truth from falsehood. That we are capable of judgement is sufficient to give us the right to judge. (Before flames incinerate my terminal let me say that judgement means merely that, the intellectual process of discernment. It does not follow that the capability to do anything is equivalent to the right to do anything.) (2) "So G-d created man in his own image; in the image of G-d he created him; male and female he created them." (Gen. 1:27) What does that mean? Certainly that does not mean physical image. Certainly that does not mean with all the omnipotence and omniscience of G-d. It may mean in the sense of goodness and righteousness. "Good" from man's standpoint cannot be all that different than from G-d's standpoint, nor can evil. Given that we have both the capacity and the criterion to make judgements, the question becomes what gives us the right *not* to judge? -- Byron Howes UNC - Chapel Hill (decvax!duke!unc!bch)
speaker@umcp-cs.UUCP (01/18/84)
My response to the initial question, "What right have we to judge G-d?" was twofold: (1) We have the right to judge because we have been given the right to judge and asked to use it. At all points in the Bible man is asked to discern right from wrong, good from evil, sin from blessing, truth from falsehood. Not so. Man STOLE the knowledge of good and evil in direct disobedience of God's command. But wait. Even if this ability to discern good from evil was stolen, that still doesn't change the fact that we HAVE the ability to judge. Perhaps God invalidates our judgement of him on the basis that he cannot be judged through ill-gotten means. Given that we have both the capacity and the criterion to make judgements, Nice... I like that. Both the criterion and capacity. the question becomes what gives us the right *not* to judge? Well, these points don't make us omniscient or guarentee that we will ever be able to process all the information that omniscience would give us. In this respect, we are no where near God's capacity to intellectually judge. Also, it's his universe so we can assume that he has plans for it... plans that preclude our meddling in cosmic judgements. On the other hand, a right (by my definition) is something that no one else may deny you. Certainly the task of judging God is something that this self-same God has denied us. Yet sanctioning it or denying it... people still do it! -- - Speaker speaker@umcp-cs speaker.umcp-cs@CSnet-Relay