israel@umcp-cs.UUCP (02/03/84)
From: lab@qubix.UUCP
Man does not measure up to God's standard, and failing to
measure up is exactly what "sin" means. Man's basic sin is
that he has decided to be his own final authority (Genesis
3:6,12; I Tim 2:14), attempting to take upon himself a glory
that belongs only to God. Because of Adam's sin, all of Adam's
descendants are born sinners. Man sins because he is a sinner
by nature, and thus also becomes a sinner by choice. Thus, no
one is innocent and Tim's ravings about God drowning "millions
of innocent" beings or killing "uniformly blameless" people are
specious.
Wait a second, let me see if I've got this straight. You say 'sin'
means not measuring up to God (who is perfect and unchanging). OK, I
can see how I would be called a sinner under that definition. I don't
understand why I'm a sinner because of what Adam did. I have a friend
named Jim, who has a seven-day old son named Nicholas Adam. I don't
see why little Nick is a sinner since all he's done in the week he has
been alive is eat, sleep, cry, wake up his parents fairly often, and
a few other standard biological functions. If he's not classified a
sinner because of what he's done, but because of what his umpteenth
ancestor Adam did, then the concept of being a sinner seems to lose
all its meaning. Also, going by your logic, Nicholas is a sinner and
therefore deserves to be killed or tortured by God for that, then you
are just supporting Tim's arguments about the morals or lack of morals
of God.
If "Man is a sinner by nature" then how does he "thus also becomes a
sinner by choice"? Choice to me implies a factor of control over the
outcome. Can Man choose not to be a sinner? If so, then how is he a
sinner by nature?
It seems to me that part of this debate could easily be reduced down to
a problem with words. Specifically, the words "choice" (which you used
above) and "responsibility" (which I am introducing). Choice I spoke
of above. Responsibility is defined in "The New Merriam-Webster
Pocket Dictionary" as "the quality or state of being responsible", and
Responsible is defined right below it as "liable to be called upon
for one's acts or decisions". I do consider my self "responsible" for
my sins (since they are my acts or decisions). I do not consider myself
responsible for Adam's sins (since by no act or decision of mine
whatsoever could I have caused them, or stopped them from occurring).
Quite the opposite - those acts evidence an attribute of God, an
essential possession that is part of His nature: Justice.
By that line, Charles Manson had an innate attribute of Justice.
God must deal with sin; He cannot allow it to go unpunished.
We deserve all the punishment we get and more; even an eternity
in the lake of fire is insufficient to pay for sin.
Why? If we are sinners by nature, why should we be responsible for
that? Sins are the breaking of God's rules. Should I suggest to my
friend Jim that he take Nicholas outside and shoot him, since Nicholas
soils his diaper, and that is breaking our rules?
It seems to me that God is setting up a straw man in the sense of
creating us as sinners, and then saying that we deserve punishment
because we are how he created us. If I write a program, is my program
responsible for it not working the way I wanted it to? Do I punish
my creation for not working or do I change it so that it acts the way
I intended it to? If God is omniscient and omnipotent, why did he not
create a universe and creatures that act exactly as he wants them to?
By the way, I have another question from earlier. In the beginning of
your letter you juxtaposed the two ideas (1. God is perfect, and 2. God
is unchanging). I could not tell from your statement whether you were
connecting them causally or not? Are you saying a) God is unchanging
because God is perfect, or b) God is perfect, and also happens to be
unchanging?
If a), there is a very pertinent section in a book called "Illusions,
the Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah" by Richard Bach (the author of
Jonathan Livingston Seagull). Unfortunately I don't have my copy handy
to quote or quote pages, but this book is really an excellent and very
entertaining novel that can be considered to be putting forth one point
of view on some of the issues discussed in this group.
If you are saying that God is unchanging, (not necessarily related to
the fact that he is perfect), I'd be interested in hearing the basis
for that belief (it isn't an idea that I've heard before).
Anyway, I've said enough (for now :-) ).
--
Bruce Israel
University of Maryland, Computer Science
{rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet) israel.umcp-cs@CSNet-Relay (Arpanet)colonel@sunybcs.UUCP (George Sicherman) (02/05/84)
Speaking of sinning, has anybody out there read _The Tao is Silent_, by the logician Raymond Smullyan? It contains an intriguing dialogue (between God and a mortal) on just this problem.
israel@umcp-cs.UUCP (02/06/84)
[ Note: This is a reposting on request since the message got trashed
somewhere downstream. - Bruce ]
From: lab@qubix.UUCP
Man does not measure up to God's standard, and failing to
measure up is exactly what "sin" means. Man's basic sin is
that he has decided to be his own final authority (Genesis
3:6,12; I Tim 2:14), attempting to take upon himself a glory
that belongs only to God. Because of Adam's sin, all of Adam's
descendants are born sinners. Man sins because he is a sinner
by nature, and thus also becomes a sinner by choice. Thus, no
one is innocent and Tim's ravings about God drowning "millions
of innocent" beings or killing "uniformly blameless" people are
specious.
Wait a second, let me see if I've got this straight. You say 'sin'
means not measuring up to God (who is perfect and unchanging). OK, I
can see how I would be called a sinner under that definition. I don't
understand why I'm a sinner because of what Adam did. I have a friend
named Jim, who has a seven-day old son named Nicholas Adam. I don't
see why little Nick is a sinner since all he's done in the week he has
been alive is eat, sleep, cry, wake up his parents fairly often, and
a few other standard biological functions. If he's not classified a
sinner because of what he's done, but because of what his umpteenth
ancestor Adam did, then the concept of being a sinner seems to lose
all its meaning. Also, going by your logic, Nicholas is a sinner and
therefore deserves to be killed or tortured by God for that, then you
are just supporting Tim's arguments about the morals or lack of morals
of God.
If "Man is a sinner by nature" then how does he "thus also becomes a
sinner by choice"? Choice to me implies a factor of control over the
outcome. Can Man choose not to be a sinner? If so, then how is he a
sinner by nature?
It seems to me that part of this debate could easily be reduced down to
a problem with words. Specifically, the words "choice" (which you used
above) and "responsibility" (which I am introducing). Choice I spoke
of above. Responsibility is defined in "The New Merriam-Webster
Pocket Dictionary" as "the quality or state of being responsible", and
Responsible is defined right below it as "liable to be called upon
for one's acts or decisions". I do consider my self "responsible" for
my sins (since they are my acts or decisions). I do not consider myself
responsible for Adam's sins (since by no act or decision of mine
whatsoever could I have caused them, or stopped them from occurring).
Quite the opposite - those acts evidence an attribute of God, an
essential possession that is part of His nature: Justice.
By that line, Charles Manson had an innate attribute of Justice.
God must deal with sin; He cannot allow it to go unpunished.
We deserve all the punishment we get and more; even an eternity
in the lake of fire is insufficient to pay for sin.
Why? If we are sinners by nature, why should we be responsible for
that? Sins are the breaking of God's rules. Should I suggest to my
friend Jim that he take Nicholas outside and shoot him, since Nicholas
soils his diaper, and that is breaking our rules?
It seems to me that God is setting up a straw man in the sense of
creating us as sinners, and then saying that we deserve punishment
because we are how he created us. If I write a program, is my program
responsible for it not working the way I wanted it to? Do I punish
my creation for not working or do I change it so that it acts the way
I intended it to? If God is omniscient and omnipotent, why did he not
create a universe and creatures that act exactly as he wants them to?
By the way, I have another question from earlier. In the beginning of
your letter you juxtaposed the two ideas (1. God is perfect, and 2. God
is unchanging). I could not tell from your statement whether you were
connecting them causally or not? Are you saying a) God is unchanging
because God is perfect, or b) God is perfect, and also happens to be
unchanging?
If a), there is a very pertinent section in a book called "Illusions,
the Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah" by Richard Bach (the author of
Jonathan Livingston Seagull). Unfortunately I don't have my copy handy
to quote or quote pages, but this book is really an excellent and very
entertaining novel that can be considered to be putting forth one point
of view on some of the issues discussed in this group.
If you are saying that God is unchanging, (not necessarily related to
the fact that he is perfect), I'd be interested in hearing the basis
for that belief (it isn't an idea that I've heard before).
Anyway, I've said enough (for now :-) ).
--
Bruce Israel
University of Maryland, Computer Science
{rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet) israel.umcp-cs@CSNet-Relay (Arpanet)
--
Bruce Israel
University of Maryland, Computer Science
{rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet) israel.umcp-cs@CSNet-Relay (Arpanet)rlr@pyuxn.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (02/07/84)
Speaking of sinning, has anybody out there read _The Tao is Silent_, by the logician Raymond Smullyan? It contains an intriguing dialogue (between God and a mortal) on just this problem. - George Sicherman sunybcs!colonel Interesting excerpt from this can be found under the name "Is God a Taoist?" in Hofstadter and Dennett's "The Mind's I". -- Pardon me for breathing... Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr