david@ssc-vax.UUCP (David Norris) (02/09/84)
"Speaker" (who are you, anyway?) responded to (?) > The "not my will but Thy will be done" attitude makes me > sick. How anyone who is human could even attempt to cast > aside his own judgements, loves and values, I do not > understand. > > I submit that such people are not fully human. People are > always looking for a God to take away their troubles, fears, > or solve their deepest inquires... this God takes many forms. I suppose I will have to be lumped in this catagory. Personally, I am glad to have a loving God who takes away my troubles and fears; it makes life worth living. But I wonder about those who believe that they have to give up treasured beliefs and loves to accept Christ. What kinds of judgements, loves and values do you think you will have to give up? You don't have to give ANYTHING up to become a Christian; God wants you the way you are. The hitch? You will find that, as you grow closer to God, you will give up some things you never thought you would. I have found this to be a common reason to reject Jesus, but I don't think it holds much weight. If you cherish a particular value, God may not ask you to give it up. If you believe God will ask you to give it up, you must search for the reasons behind such a belief. Let's take a case in point, a value that might be disputed. Homosexuality is a good one; I think we can agree that we disagree, anyway. A homosexual knows that, if he accepts Christ, he will be asked to give up his sexual preference. Let us also assume that he sincerely believes that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. What reasons might he have for not accepting Jesus? There are many superficial reasons: 1) fear of response from friends, family, others This one doesn't flush. It implies that an individual is more concerned about his image than in his ideals. 2) doesn't really believe in God This is another argument, and has little to do with his personal values. The fact that he is a homosexual should have little to do with his belief in God. You can't say you don't believe in God because you are a homosexual; existance (or non-existance) of a Supreme Being does not depend on one person's values. 3) fear that a real God will ask him to give up his lifestyle To me, this is the only argumentable answer. But it implies that the person is making a free choice to reject God. I suspect that this is rather rare. Since I am sub-human, I have probably left out some other reasonable responses to this question. Seriously, do you *really* believe that others are sub-human to cast aside his own values, if God asked him to? This implies a relationship with the Almighty, and would make the individual super-human, not sub-human, don't you think? -- David Norris :-) -- uw-beaver!ssc-vax!david
amigo2@ihuxq.UUCP (John Hobson) (02/11/84)
(Note to readers of net.motss: the article which this answers is in net.religion) David Norris says: >> But I wonder about those who believe that they have to give >> up treasured beliefs and loves to accept Christ. What kinds >> of judgements, loves and values do you think you will have >> to give up? You don't have to give ANYTHING up to become a >> Christian; God wants you the way you are. The hitch? You >> will find that, as you grow closer to God, you will give up >> some things you never thought you would. >> >> I have found this to be a common reason to reject Jesus, but >> I don't think it holds much weight. If you cherish a >> particular value, God may not ask you to give it up. If you >> believe God will ask you to give it up, you must search for >> the reasons behind such a belief. >> >> Let's take a case in point, a value that might be disputed. >> Homosexuality is a good one; I think we can agree that we >> disagree, anyway. A homosexual knows that, if he accepts >> Christ, he will be asked to give up his sexual preference. >> Let us also assume that he sincerely believes that there is >> nothing wrong with homosexuality. What reasons might he >> have for not accepting Jesus? There are many superficial >> reasons: [ SEVERAL LINES OMITTED ] >> 3) fear that a real God will ask him to give up his >> lifestyle >> To me, this is the only argumentable answer. But it implies >> that the person is making a free choice to reject God. I >> suspect that this is rather rare. Since I am sub-human, I >> have probably left out some other reasonable responses to >> this question. Seriously, do you *really* believe that >> others are sub-human to cast aside his own values, if God >> asked him to? This implies a relationship with the >> Almighty, and would make the individual super-human, not >> sub-human, don't you think? David, I'm sorry, but I don't follow you. You say in the first paragraph "You don't have to give ANYTHING up to become a Christian; God wants you the way you are", in almost the next breath you say "A homosexual knows that, if he accepts Christ, he will be asked to give up his sexual preference." This is certainly giving something up, expecting perpetual celibacy (for someone who is not sexually attracted to women). What if, as you say, we "assume that he sincerely believes that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality." Then he would be going against his beliefs to reject homosexuality. This would make him different from what he truly is, but you say that God wants him as he is. It would be also be hypocritical, which God most assuredly does not want. It may (or then again it may not) surprise you to hear that there are many men (and women) who are gay and believe themselves to be sincere Christians. I am speaking of those who do not give up their homosexual lifestyle, but try to live it in a loving and Christian way. As far as your third reason for not accepting Jesus goes, I think that what I have just said is an answer to it. I would add a fourth reason, far more cogent: 4) anger that a loving God would not accept homosexuals, but condemns them for something over which they have no real control, i.e., sexual preference. John Hobson AT&T Bell Labs Naperville, IL (312) 979-0193 ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2
kechkayl@ecn-ee.UUCP (02/11/84)
#R:ssc-vax:-81400:ecn-ee:18600006:000:298
ecn-ee!kechkayl Feb 11 05:08:00 1984
Well . . . If god asked me to discard a personal belief, and a
strongly held one at that, I would at least ask for a few good reasons.
Some reasons that would not be acceptable would be:
"Do it because I'm GOD!", or
"It would make me happy", or
"Do it or I will do nasty things to you!"sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer) (02/12/84)
Strangely, I agree with David Norris' generic comments about Christian belief and the inevitable letting go of incompatible beliefs and attitudes as one's relationship with God deepens. One only wishes that he hadn't used homosexuality as his example--more evidence of his limited view of others' approaches to God. It is NOT a forgone conclusion that: "A homosexual knows that, if he accepts Christ, he will be asked to give up his sexual preference." There are many deeply religious homosexual men and women who see their sexuality as an expression of God's love and have no quarrel with this "gift." I would admit that someone steeped in the heady tradition of fundamentalism would wrestle with this issue, and feel that they must renounce their sexual behavior (not to mention their sexual preference.) To them, I wish good luck and God's grace--they'll need it! On a purely personal level, I have known several people who have tried just that. It's generally hell-on-earth for as many years as they can stand it. Finally, when they realize they've been chasing an illusion, they stop. Some stop all belief in God, and some remain in the Church. But this is a digression, and has little to do with my point, which is that David's statement is an expression of his reading of Scripture, and is not the final conclusion that every Christian will come to. I would invite him (and others) to read two very good books: John Boswell, "Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality", and John (?) McNeill, "The Church and the Homosexual". Both of these trace the attitudinal changes of Western society and the Church towards homosexuality, and reexamine the Biblical texts traditionally invoked against homosexual behavior. I grant that orthodox fundamentalists are unlikely to be swayed by modern scholarship; perhaps at best, it might give them a feeling for other streams of thought in the Church today. -- /Steve Dyer decvax!bbncca!sdyer sdyer@bbncca
kechkayl@ecn-ee.UUCP (02/15/84)
#R:pucc-h:-54100:ecn-ee:18600007:000:1373 ecn-ee!kechkayl Feb 14 12:44:00 1984 "Do it because I am the true God. Do it because not giving it up will do nasty things to you, quite apart from Me; if you set anything but Me up as God, it will go sour on you, it will crack under the weight of being god, which no one but I am strong enough to support, it will make you unhappy NOT to give it up; but it will ultimately make YOU happy to go ahead and give it up. Well, Jeff, If god told me that, I would still ask for reasons. First, I was not talking about setting something up as God, I was simply talking about a belief. It IS possible to hold a belief without setting it up as God. Secondly, many beliefs DO make you unhappy, but that can't stop you from believing them. For instance, belief in freedom may force you to fight and die, something which I woudn't particularily want to do, but that will not cause me to renounce my belief in it. Being an adult includes the responsibility to stick to what you truly believe in, no matter what. If you REALLY believe in an ideal or principle, you will continue to believe in it until you have good evidence to the contrary. (No matter if it makes you happy or otherwise!) On the bright side, thanks for the reasonable tone of your article. Maybe I've been reading too much net.flame lately, but it struck me as a relief. Thomas Ruschak ecn-ee!kechkayl "Aiee! A toy robot!"
aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) (02/16/84)
<in case the net demands a sacrifice> Thomas Ruschak writes (quoting me): > "Do it because I am the true God. Do it because not giving it up will do > nasty things to you, quite apart from Me; if you set anything but Me up as > God, it will go sour on you, it will crack under the weight of being god, > which no one but I am strong enough to support, it will make you unhappy > NOT to give it up; but it will ultimately make YOU happy to go ahead and > give it up. > > Well, Jeff, If god told me that, I would still ask for reasons. That is something I still do; but despite that, I will say that I have found in many cases that it is only in hindsight that you see the reason(s) for anything that God seems to be asking you to do. Dr. Paul Tournier has said, "If a person will not dare to risk being mistaken about the will of God, he will never come to know God any better." In other words, you have to go ahead and take risks, give up security, give up even the security of knowing why, in order to have any chance of receiving blessings. No one's saying this is easy (as witness the article I submitted about 24 hours ago). > On the bright side, thanks for the reasonable tone of your article. Maybe > I've been reading too much net.flame lately, but it struck me as a relief. Thank you for the bouquet. I usually try to present Christianity in a reasonable light. (Sometimes I feel as if there's a 3-way discussion in this group, among the atheists, the fundamentalists, and me!) -- -- Jeff Sargent {allegra, ihnp4, decvax, harpo, seismo, teklabs, ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq "Buy the truth and do not sell it; gain wisdom, knowledge, and understanding."